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  • #16
    See this is where I believe everyone is completely full of crap. Everyone complains about the WWE for the 'lack of building new stars' or where are the 'people being built up the old fashioned way', though the mid card, like Macho, Warrior, HHH, SCSA, The Rock, HBK, Hart, etc were. Hell, even the illustrious Class of 2002 of Orton, Cena, and Batista were all build that way too. People also have been complaining that the 'old guys' keep the new young guys down and steal their spots so no new talent can become anything, especially when looking back at the fall of WCW.

    And now that I am bringing hat point to the forefront, where the average age of the performer of RAW from (especially) last Monday was 44, that completely supports my argument, and my point that the WWE is not building for its future. You can talk all you want that 'well the show was good' or the 'performers are doing a good job'. That is NOT the point. The point is that the WWE is relying on people who are not going to be there in a very short period of time. These performers are a few short years (possibly less) away from being gone, and they have NO ONE to take their place. Look back to the 90's and early 2000's, the main event was stacked with veterans and newer talent, and the midcard as also stacked with young hungry guys that were ready to make the leap to the main event scene.

    Now there is no young and hungry midcard on either RAW or SD making waves. Much of that falls on the WWE for the lack of creativity, and much of it also falls on the talent not doing anything to make themselves known. Mustafa Ali is trying, really f'n hard, but he is saddled with Retribution, but his promos are getting him noticed. He is doing what every other performer who wants to get over should do. Cut promos that connect with the audience. He is doing that. BUT, who else is? Keith Lee was great in NXT in the ring, but on the main roster he is failing. He can easily be fixed, with better booking, but still he is no where ready for anything close to the main event, and he is NO a good promo. With Riddle, the WWE is actually building him the right way.

    But take those three guys away and what do you have left? NO ONE.

    When the roster is basically all guys that are close to retirement, and in your main event, then you need the next generation in the midcard being built to take their place. Rock, Austin and HHH all had legendary feuds over the IC title long before they were vying for the WWF title. That is where they got over, as young, hungry guys, who forced themselves into the main event because of what they were doing as midcard guys. The look back to the 80s, that is exactly how Warrior and Macho got to the main event, through the IC title.

    Again, where are the performers who are between 25-33 that are building themselves up through the midcard, making names for themselves, and connecting so hard that they force their way into the main event? No where.

    So age does play a huge factor in the WWE, and all athletically based competitions (real sports). You need veterans. You need the experienced and talented guys in the main event, but you also need a younger base of wrestlers ready to make the leap.

    Again AEW is doing that, and they have a long term plan in place for when their top older stars are gone, as they have: Adam Page, MJF, Jungle Boy, Ricky Starks, Darby Allin, Hobbs, Wardlow, Sammy Guevara, Rey Fenix, Santana, Ortiz, and Private Party getting ready and building themselves up.

    And do not give me NXT, which is a great show, but much of that roster is also 35 or older.



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    • #17
      Here's where you're wrong (other than everywhere else)

      A new star does't have to be in their 20s. You want to compare to AEW? Their Champions have been Moxley (who won it at 34), Omega (37), and Jericho (4684). Yes they have people they are building that are younger, but have you ever wondered why they are putting in effort for these unknown younger talents? It's because anyone who was known at the time of AEW's inception was already a star or signed elsewhere. When AEW started, MLW, ROH, Impact and WWE (with NXT) all had talent exclusively signed. The people AEW was able to sign away from others were obviously relatively known. But their project younger stars weren't.

      And that is also the case with NXT. Yes, the focus might be on some of those who are known, but there's also a focus on the younger ones. You're just leaving them out of the equation to be convenient for your argument. Austin Theory was brought up, but there's also Cameron Grimes (27) Bronson Reed (32), Imperium's Fabian Aichner and Marcel Bartel (both 30), Swerve (30), Jake Atlas (26), Leon Ruff (24), Nash Carter and Wes Lee of MSK (26 and unknown though debuted less than 10 years ago), current #1 contender Pete Dunne (27), and Velveteen Dream (25). All of these people have had a serious push on TV comparable to all the names you mentioned from AEW.


      So we aren't full of shit. You're just ignoring the obvious. But it's not exactly your fault either. WWE doesn't put a spotlight on how they are developing new stars, whereas AEW does (usually through the fans)

      Oh, and I should be very specific about something here. So far we've only discussed the building up of new MALE stars. While women's wrestling has it's faults, there's no denying it's a growing aspect of wrestling. It's going to be a focus for years to come, and female stars are going to be on the posters and PPV ads. WWE has a way better roster overall, but also a better system of developing new female stars. When you add women into the mix, WWE demolishes AEW in who is building up new stars.


      All of this brings up an even more important point in my opinion: if as a viewer you're focusing on how they are building up stars, the show is not doing it's job. You messaged me recently about comparing WWE to the grandiose script writing of Game of Thrones, and I had to point out that it's unfair to compare 7 hours of new content weekly, to 8 hours annually. But on top of that, when you watch a scripted show, you're not thinking about "who's going to be interesting next season?" The purpose of any show, including wrestling, should be for you to enjoy what you're watching NOW. Obviously as online fans, we look at things differently, and we are all prone to overthinking these aspects. But sometimes the answer is to sit back and just watch what they give you, the way people did with Game of Thrones (at least for 7.5 of their 8 seasons, apparently).

      This isn't to say we are all wrong for thinking of these extra aspects (well, I think we are, but that's not the point). It's more that it's WWE's fault for putting on a program lacking in excitement so that we are left thinking about the negatives. I think Raw is mostly average, but as I say on a regular basis on the podcast with Cult, WWE puts on good shows more often than they are given credit for, but they are rarely exciting. It's just a good show. Things work, matches are good, some stories are interesting. But when was the last time any of us felt "oh I can't wait for the next Raw or Smackdown?" NXT is a different story, as are WWE PPVs. But the weekly show never has a hook that makes fans say "I need to see what happens next week!".

      By the way, in keeping with the original purpose of this thread, WWF in 2000 certainly did that.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by PEN15v2 View Post
        Oh, and I should be very specific about something here. So far we've only discussed the building up of new MALE stars. While women's wrestling has it's faults, there's no denying it's a growing aspect of wrestling. It's going to be a focus for years to come, and female stars are going to be on the posters and PPV ads. WWE has a way better roster overall, but also a better system of developing new female stars. When you add women into the mix, WWE demolishes AEW in who is building up new stars.
        This is going to come across as sexist, and I don't mean for it to, but I have a hard time thinking about female stars of the future. Rhea Ripley has everything needed to be the top star in the industry. Not just of the women, not just WWE, but the entire industry. If anyone in the company is going to do that, it's going to be her. Charlotte is going to change the perception of women's wrestling to the, still majority, people who still see women's wrestling as an extra and a gimmick. Rhea could be the female Rock. She's that good.

        However, she's 24 in a long term relationship. The problem with planning the future around female stars is, and again I don't intend to be sexist, they're an unplanned (or planned) pregnancy away from missing a year or more of their career and potentially deciding not to come back at all. Becky was the most pushed woman in the company and she's gone now until who knows when.

        In terms of the male stars, like I said I can't think of anyone on Raw, SmackDown or NXT other than Austin Theory that I see main eventing Wrestlemania in 15 years. I'm not completely familiar with who they have signed but haven't debuted, but I can't think of anyone. Looking at the AEW roster, I see Adam Page, MJF and maybe Wardlow in that type of spot potentially.

        That's four people in the entire industry that I can visualize as a top, main event of Wrestlemania-level attraction. That's because the next crop of top guys are still on the indies getting good.

        Keep in mind that some of the reason these top guys are coming in later is that in until 2002 or so, when wrestling was still hot, there were territories all around North America headed up by experienced veteran talent where guys could work 5-4 days per week, 52 weeks per year. I know guys that toured weekly in territories making almost $50k per year without a "real" job. By the time they were 25, they were ready for prime time, by the time they were 30 they were 10 years in with high levels of experience ready to be main event talent. Not a lot of people can do that anymore. It's taking more years to get the level of experience that makes you good enough to be a top talent.

        There are guys being pushed on AEW (and to a lesser extend WWE/NXT but they have a really high level training school) whose fundamentals are terrible. They can have exciting matches, but if you try to draw with them outside of the people who are already watching, they don't look like wrestlers. Something looks off. You can put that person on the top of your card at 30, but it's not going to draw any more than the people who already like that person. Roman Reigns, at 35, is the type of talent that can draw new fans. He's gotten that good and has that aura.

        A 36 year old wrestler in NXT could be main eventing Wrestlemania 45. Careers as full time wrestlers are going longer. John Cena could still be wrestling full time as the company's top star if Hollywood hadn't come knocking.

        Again, I don't really care, nor do I judge based on, who looks like they're going to be next. I'm looking at today's show.
        Last edited by Team Farrell; 01-29-2021, 12:14 PM.
        https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
        My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Team Farrell View Post
          The problem with planning the future around female stars is, and again I don't intend to be sexist, they're an unplanned (or planned) pregnancy away from missing a year or more of their career and potentially deciding not to come back at all. Becky was the most pushed woman in the company and she's gone now until who knows when.
          I think Becky is an example of where a promoter might hold back. But at the same time, even if you don't get the same time out of Rhea for example, you could still get some time. Look at the Rock. He only wrestled full time in WWE from 1996-2002. If they build Rhea to that level, and then she has a child and comes back for only part time roles, that's still worth aiming for.

          Plus, Becky might return in the next year to another full time run.

          There are definitely handicaps, but they are be worked around.

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          • #20
            Cornette is convinced they'll only get a few years out of her and has been screaming for a year she needs to be on the main roster and booked on top while they have her. He's pretty much convinced that she'll be on USA or Fox for a few years and then Hollywood will be backing up Brinks trucks to her house to make her a major action movie star.
            Last edited by Team Farrell; 01-29-2021, 01:15 PM.
            https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
            My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

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            • #21
              So, very similar to the Rock.

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              • #22
                Yeah. Funny how Rhea seems to be one of the few things everyone watching the business can agree about. I guess if someone is that good everyone sees it.
                https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
                My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

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                • #23
                  So do it. Strap the rocket to her back and send her on her way. There is no mid card for the Women, and she already made a name for herself last year. So have her win the Rumble and then go on to beat Charlotte at Mania.

                  or do you think that WWE will take a Year to build her more, and have her win her first title at Mania 22 (hopefully) in front of 80,000 people?

                  if I was the WWE, I wouldn’t wait. They need stars and she is a star. If played right, they could get 15 years out of her, even with a 1-2 year break to have a kid in 5 years.

                  but everyone agrees that she is the next big thing, because she gets it. She can go, she can talk, she has her gimmick down pat, because it is an extension of who she really is, just dialed up to 11. Exactly as everyone always says is the best way. Ripely could be the next Angle, where she is just a natural.
                  Last edited by Powder; 01-29-2021, 02:35 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Here's an interesting thing. I'm watching Survivor Series 2000, and for as good as the booking is overall, this show is reliant completely on star power and storytelling in the lead-up as opposed to a card. It's a triple main event of Austin vs Triple H, Taker vs Kurt and Rock vs Rikishi. And I don't think any of those matches were made official more than 10 days out.

                    Triple H wasn't revealed as being behind the attack on Austin until Raw two weeks before the show, so I believe it was that same week on SmackDown that they made that match official. Same with Rock vs Rikishi. Angle challenged Taker, I believe, on that same Raw so that would be 13 days out.

                    For week between pay per views there's no matches to promote. They just let the stories play out, and announce the matches a few days out.

                    I don't think anything else was announced in advance. If it was, it was on SmackDown three days before the pay per view. It's almost like the actual pay per view snuck up on them or something.

                    The booking and storytelling is great, but it's like they thought they had more time to promote an actual card than they did. And the buyrate was down 10 per cent from the year before, and rebounded right up the next year.

                    Unlike No Mercy the month before and Armageddon the next month, Survivor Series seemed more like an abstract concept than an upcoming event. They let you know it was coming, but there wasn't a lot of mention of the date on TV or what to expect.
                    https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
                    My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

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                    • #25
                      There have been odd incidences of that in recent years as well. although there were almost always mitigating circumstances - often the PPV after the Saudi shows was rushed to build to because they never did built to it before the Saudi shows, for example. I wonder if there was anything before that Series - would they have had the annual UK tour around that time? I wonder if they wanted to get through that before setting the card in place?

                      Originally posted by Powder View Post
                      So do it. Strap the rocket to her back and send her on her way. There is no mid card for the Women, and she already made a name for herself last year. So have her win the Rumble and then go on to beat Charlotte at Mania.
                      And maybe they will? Guess we'll find out tomorrow night.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Team Farrell View Post
                        Here's an interesting thing. I'm watching Survivor Series 2000, and for as good as the booking is overall, this show is reliant completely on star power and storytelling in the lead-up as opposed to a card. It's a triple main event of Austin vs Triple H, Taker vs Kurt and Rock vs Rikishi. And I don't think any of those matches were made official more than 10 days out.

                        Triple H wasn't revealed as being behind the attack on Austin until Raw two weeks before the show, so I believe it was that same week on SmackDown that they made that match official. Same with Rock vs Rikishi. Angle challenged Taker, I believe, on that same Raw so that would be 13 days out.

                        For week between pay per views there's no matches to promote. They just let the stories play out, and announce the matches a few days out.

                        I don't think anything else was announced in advance. If it was, it was on SmackDown three days before the pay per view. It's almost like the actual pay per view snuck up on them or something.

                        The booking and storytelling is great, but it's like they thought they had more time to promote an actual card than they did. And the buyrate was down 10 per cent from the year before, and rebounded right up the next year.
                        I always felt like they could get away with that for two reasons.One is they were already super over - you couldn't do that if your product wasn't already heated up. And the other is that the stories moved in and out of each other quite often, so Hunter vs Austin became not just a story or feud on it's own, but part of a feud stretching back.... I mean, arguably as far as Austin being run down but even if that's too far, then inarguably as far back as Austin's return in September. So although the individual story wasn't all that well developed before the first match, it kinda folded into some overreaching story that a) carried it along, and b) made sure people were already kinda hooked.

                        "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Prime Time View Post
                          I always felt like they could get away with that for two reasons.One is they were already super over - you couldn't do that if your product wasn't already heated up. And the other is that the stories moved in and out of each other quite often, so Hunter vs Austin became not just a story or feud on it's own, but part of a feud stretching back.... I mean, arguably as far as Austin being run down but even if that's too far, then inarguably as far back as Austin's return in September. So although the individual story wasn't all that well developed before the first match, it kinda folded into some overreaching story that a) carried it along, and b) made sure people were already kinda hooked.
                          Originally posted by Oliver View Post
                          There have been odd incidences of that in recent years as well. although there were almost always mitigating circumstances - often the PPV after the Saudi shows was rushed to build to because they never did built to it before the Saudi shows, for example. I wonder if there was anything before that Series - would they have had the annual UK tour around that time? I wonder if they wanted to get through that before setting the card in place?
                          I think Prime Time's pretty much nailed it. The stories were intertwining and going back and forth, TV was really interesting, but it wasn't until towards the end that they finally firmed up those matches.

                          I noticed that there wasn't much mention in the month leading up as there had been previously to things like "The Rock is going to appear at Survivor Series, Sunday November 19 on pay per view, call your cable provider." I think they were hot enough that just plugging the date and that Rock or Austin was going to be there would have made up the 10 per cent that they were down, but even plugging the date didn't seem to happen until the last minute.

                          Usually several episodes out I know how many weeks away from the pay per view we are, this time around it wasn't until the end of the Raw before when Rikishi and Triple H ran down The Rock that I really noticed JR hammering home "this Sunday". Jericho does a promo on that same show demanding Kane at Survivor Series and I don't think he even mentions that it was that Sunday.

                          Survivor Series 2000 was great. This was firmly into when I was into going to the theater with my friend every month to watch the shows (I think we discovered that at Mania 2000), and Austin dropping Triple H from the giant forklift was as awesome at 32 as it was at 12.

                          It also suddenly occurs to me that our parents allowed my friends and I to gallivant all around a large city by ourselves on public transportation with no supervision, cell phones or way of getting in touch until we got home at 12 years old. Again, I say my how times have changed.
                          https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
                          My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Team Farrell View Post
                            It also suddenly occurs to me that our parents allowed my friends and I to gallivant all around a large city by ourselves on public transportation with no supervision, cell phones or way of getting in touch until we got home at 12 years old. Again, I say my how times have changed.
                            Stuff like this is amazing, when you look back. I didn't have a mobile until I was 16, but had been going on the bus to the nearest town for a few years before that. I'd cycled over to friend's houses with nothing but the clothes on my back, and this was in rural England so if I got a puncture I was going to be anywhere between 1 and 6 miles from either home or destination with no way of contacting anybody.

                            Heck, even just going to the shop in my little town without anyway of contacting anybody should I need to would probably not happen nowadays at 12/13.

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                            • #29
                              The reason is the internet. How you ask: Well, the first thing my wife did, when she got pregnant was to google search where all the sexual predators lived. At least in America, every sex offender has to register and their addresses are public knowledge, so parents are now hypervigilant.

                              Sexual predators are NOT a new thing, nor are there any more/less than there were 25-35-45 years ago, but seeing where they are is so much easier.

                              When I was young, my fiends and I would be out of our houses at 10AM until 5PM..we also walked to the mall for hours alone. Now no fucking way, even with cell phones.

                              The internet made mothers so overprotective.

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                              • #30
                                I feel like we've veered massively off not only the WWF in 2000 but wrestling in general, so here's a gif to steer us back in the right direction.




                                "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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