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Survivor Series 2022 - WARGAMES

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  • #16
    Pretty excited for this PPV, even with only 5 matches booked so far
    • AJ Styles vs Finn Balor
    • Men's WARGAMES - Roman Reigns, Sami Zayn, Usos, Solo Sikoa vs Brawling Brutes, Drew McIntyre and Kevin Owens
    • Women's WARGAMES - Bianca Belair, Alexa Bliss, Mia Yim, Asuka, TBD vs Bayley, Dakota Kai, Io Sky, Nikki Cross, Rhea Ripley
    • Smackdown Women's Championship - Ronda Rousey vs Shotzi
    • Triple Threat for US Championship - Seth Rollins vs Austin Theory vs Bobby Lashley
    Last edited by PEN15v2; 11-21-2022, 09:08 PM.


    • #17
      This looks like a pretty awesome show. I might actually sit down and watch live.
      My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show


      • #18
        I'm in the minority about not caring for Theory's current direction, but I'm sure that US title match will deliver what is expected. As a story and their characters, I think all 3 are going in the wrong direction, but there's no doubt they can all put on a great match. And Theory getting more main event level experience will be great for his future.

        Yeah, I'm looking forward to this card. I wish for purely selfish and sentimental/traditional reasons that there was at least one Survivor Series Elimination match, maybe The OC vs Judgment Day in a 3 on 3 version (like the final match of the 1991 edition). But all 5 matches are interesting on some level.


        • #19
          They almost have to add another match or two just to keep things at their standard length, right?

          Maybe they'll put some guys they want to fit on the card in a bit of a mishmash SS match like they'd do in the mid 90s. Those are always fun little nothing matches that can separate things and make for an enjoyable match because the guys in them tend to know what they are and just go out and have fun.

          Maybe just have some fun with like Ricochet, Mustafa Ali, Gargano and Hit Row vs Legado Del Phantasma, The Miz and someone from NXT. That would intersect a few feuds. Or something like Riddle/Elias/Gargano/New Day vs Otis/Gable/Miz/Ciampa/Omos.
          Last edited by Team Farrell; 11-22-2022, 05:56 PM.

          My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show


          • #20

            I didn't get to watch live. Life got in the way. I'm watching now. Alexa just entered the match. It's dogshit so far. Gimme a wild brawl. Leave the kendo sticks and trash can lids at home, quit it with the fake looking Stardom running spots, have something that resembles people trying to fight and hurt one another.

            It all looks so fake and I'm bored. Maybe the women don't need to do Wargames.

            Edit: Wargames needs blood.

            Becky just entered. I'm no less bored. Why are Damage CTRL coming at her one at a time with trash can lids? It's like I'm watching Power Rangers.

            I'm not sold on them sounding the bell when everyone gets in. Trust your fans are smart enough to know that they're allowed to pin one another.

            Edit2: We can all hear you calling spots idiots.

            Edit3: Put the roof back on and stop with the spots off the top. Someone is going to get hurt. Cross landed on her face on hers, and Bianca almost blew out a knee or ankle catching Sky.

            Maybe WWE just isn't violent enough for Wargames. They're overly reliant on big holy shit spots these days, and it doesn't translate to Wargames. It feels like I'm watching a TLC or any other plunder match, and that's a bad thing for Wargames.

            While I'm at it, cool it with the kendo sticks in general. I get it, they're safe, but they're like a punch these days. If you can't work one good shot or two with a more dangerous weapon that's going to be sold, don't work with weapons.

            Edit4: That match just ended. If I wasn't doing things around the house today, I'd turn the whole thing off after that.

            Edit5: Well, I'm glad I didn't turn it off. Stuff with Sami is great, AJ and Finn made the show worth watching.

            I've seen a lot of people saying that Ronda has been regressing. I don't thing that's the case, I think she's being put in trouble positions. Don't have her leave the ring, don't have her taking apron bumps, let her have professional wrestling matches.

            Edit6: I'm so much more baffled about Theory now. If this was the ultimate destination, why have him lose his cash-in on a beaten man? Why change his personality if he's going to luck in to the belt? Why not have him win his cash-in, get disrespected for a few weeks, luck in to the win at Survivor Series, continue to get disrespected as a "fluke", and then have that be the catalyst for a change in attitude? As it stands, he lost his cash-in, changed his entire attitude and still isn't on the level of the US Champ because he fluked in to it.

            Edit7: Okay, KO in the Dusty shirt is pretty awesome. Why do the babyfaces have the advantage? I mean, I assume it's so that Roman is the last one in the match because he's the biggest star, but in you don't have a babyface star big enough to go with a sensible thing of having the heels get the advantage and the babyfaces fighting from underneath...may reevaluate the need to do Wargames this year? Maybe they didn't need one at all and could have planned for it next year? Maybe a traditional Survivor Series match would have had everything make more sense?

            Edit8: This ring announcer chick is...less than ideal? She's trying to sound big? Important? Tough? I'm not sure, but she uses the same voice introducing people that I do when I'm pretending to be a monster with my girlfriend's 5 year old.

            Edit9: "Butch already has an issue with the Bloodline". They're in Wargames! I would fucking hope so!

            Edit10: Aaaaaaaaaand cue tables. If I ran the company, the next person to suggest a table bump in the next six months would be suspended.

            Edit11: KO in jeans and Nikes looks like my barber. Put the basketball shorts back on. I do appreciate that in all red with the black and white boots, Sami kind of looks like a department store Santa in a really cheap department store. Why are Butch and Ridge wearing t-shirts? Especially Butch. He looks great.

            Edit 12: Wargames needs blood. Everything is surrounded by steel, something should cut you. Everything on this show feels so safe and fake, except for the contrived obviously fake things where they stand around waiting to catch someone, those look like someone is going to get seriously injured.

            Edit13: I'm surprised there was a camera man in the ring. When they did the last NXT one, didn't they have little gimmicks all throughout the cage with remote operated cameras in them? I mean, it makes sense because it's televised that you'd have a cameraman in the cage, but still, I don't think you'd see one standing on the field at an NFL game.

            Edit14: What the fuck is wrong with modern WWE? The Usos hit a 3D off the top goddamn rope and it was treated by the fans, wrestlers and announcers like they hit a body slam. That shit's an injury angle, and they treated it like absolutely nothing at all. The same thing happened in the women's match. One of them drove a trash can lid into a girl's throat. When Taker did that with a chair, it wrote a guy off TV for weeks, now it's a nothing spot in a match full of garbage. I hate pro wrestling.

            At least Zayn will be a big babyface when the Bloodline turns on him, and El goddamn Generico will probably have a PPV Undisputed Title match against the biggest star in the business at some point.
            Last edited by Team Farrell; 11-27-2022, 06:00 PM.
            My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show


            • #21
              I found the whole show kind of lukewarm. I didn't hate anything but nothing popped for me either.

              Same issue(s) with WarGames as above, they're just big WWE gimmick matches. They could be 5 on 5 TLC matches and would look much the same. They're too long - wayyyyyy too long - and while I'm not especially bothered about the legacy of WarGames or anything being tainted by a lack of blood or violence or whatever, I just think there's much more drama in having someone on the outside that sneaks a weapon in that gets used rather than having the next competitor come down and throw in chairs, then one throw in bin lids, then one with kendo sticks, then one with a ladder, and then finally one with a table. This might just be me, but say in the Bloodline match, Heyman sneaking in the timekeepers hammer, or a wrench, passing it through the holes in the cage - that would mean much more than the parade of weapons just being added to the ring.

              I'd cut the time between people getting in down by a minute each - maybe keep the initial five minute spell, but then have one every two from there. Immediately that cuts 7 minutes off the bout time. It would also make less time to mess around with weapons - there was one point where Bayley took about two minutes to actually get through the door because she was sliding things into the cage. And I'd also make it submission only, no matter how they get there. Also, aesthetic things, but I'd get people in street gear. Jeans and boots as a minimum, chuck a t-shirt on if they've got merch to sell. I don't know why, I think I'd just prefer it if people paid off these as being a fight rather than a wrestling match.

              Shotzi vs Ronda was a TV bout on pay per view. That's fine, but is that really what you want to do with a special attraction like Ronda and the title belt? Still not sold on Shotzi, she's like a budget Rhea Ripley - the kind of sidekick to the bully that goes around and sneers in the background when they say something. Like, Rhea could look at Bianca and say 'I'm gonna take your title' and Shotzi would pop up in the corner of the screen and squeak 'yeah, she's gonna take your title!'.

              Finn/AJ was probably match of the night for simply not being too long and not being too bad. Didn't enjoy it as much as their previous Survivor Series effort.

              Didn't mind the triple threat, didn't love it, didn't hate it, thought the ending can either play off as Theory taking a quick opportunity or getting lucky.


              • #22
                Originally posted by Oliver View Post
                Same issue(s) with WarGames as above, they're just big WWE gimmick matches. They could be 5 on 5 TLC matches and would look much the same. They're too long - wayyyyyy too long - and while I'm not especially bothered about the legacy of WarGames or anything being tainted by a lack of blood or violence or whatever, I just think there's much more drama in having someone on the outside that sneaks a weapon in that gets used rather than having the next competitor come down and throw in chairs, then one throw in bin lids, then one with kendo sticks, then one with a ladder, and then finally one with a table. This might just be me, but say in the Bloodline match, Heyman sneaking in the timekeepers hammer, or a wrench, passing it through the holes in the cage - that would mean much more than the parade of weapons just being added to the ring.
                That's what kills me with these matches. They're all the same. In WWE, functionally ladder match is the same as a TLC match is the same as a Hell in the Cell match. You might win the match differently, but all the spots are the same, and they rely on these big spot crutches to wow fans as opposed to putting on a pro wrestling match. It's fireworks that get "ooo's" and "ahh's", rather than risking people getting bored, as opposed to invested.

                Look at this:

                They busted out a chair, and used the ring steps, but otherwise it was two guys trying to hurt one another. They didn't need to jump off the top, or use ladders, or big table spots. It felt like a special match.

                All WWE gimmick matches look the exact same. I think Wargames needs blood, but even if it doesn't, it needs violence. It needs people trying to genuinely hurt one another. It needs to look different than a ladder match in a cage. The cage is the gimmick, use the cage. Nobody was grinding anyone's face on the chainlink, or repeatedly taking a guy's head off the mesh. It's boring to me, and so frustratingly disappointing. I was so excited, and had such high hopes for the show and came out probably not interested in watching the product for a while.

                I agree about some of the adjustments to the rules. Three minute intervals are so long. Not just for fans, but for the boys. I had a match with similar rules recently, and the guys actually requested the interval drop to 60-90 seconds after the initial five minutes, because it really does feel like killing time. You get one or two big moments, and then you're in time killing mode. Submission (or knockout) only would be great, too. Imagine a spot last night where KO had Roman in a hold, everyone else is down, and Heyman is standing on the outside with the white towel in his hand losing his mind about whether or not he should throw it in.

                It would have altered the finish somewhat, sure, but they could have done the exact same thing, and Sami feeds KO to Jey for a version of Roman's guillotine and the referee calls it.

                I feel like WWE lost people like Pat Patterson, Brisco, and all these geniuses when it came to finishes and putting matches together, and that vacuum that never filled has left them having to go to the same finishes, and the same spots and everything is so same. There's nothing creative, and what little "creative" there is, is 2010 indy spots from agents who that was their peak.
                Last edited by Team Farrell; 11-28-2022, 03:14 PM.
                My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show


                • #23
                  Agreed with most of the points already mentioned. I enjoyed it, but not in a "4.75 star classic" the way most reviews are. I'll never watch this show or those matches again, but I had fun watching it that night. It's the same I felt for all the War Games in NXT, for everything posted already. What made the show good were the stories more than the matches. I was telling Powder that the 8 person tag that just opened Raw was better than any match at Survivor Series.

                  I like to "collect" and compile "Best of" collections. Put together a video playlist (read mp4s burned on DVD-R) of the best matches (or UFC fights). And it's impossible to do anymore. There's SOOOOOOOOOO much wrestling that almost nothing stands out. Even the unique matches like MITB, Hell in a Cell, Chamber, or War Games... they all blend together so easily. Jey Uso vs Roman in the Cell or Jeff Hardy vs Randy Orton in the Cell, or the MITB in WWE headquarters... those are rare examples of matches that actually stand out, and in the case of the MITB, not in a way I want to put in a collection.

                  We are spoiled with good to great wrestling everywhere (depending on taste). But memorable wrestling? We'll never have Hitman vs Austin in a Submission Match ever again. There's not enough room to breathe on any show, or patience from the crowd.


                  • #24
                    Maybe the issue is that a lot of these matches have been overexposed over the years so we've seen almost everything you can do within them. Which, of course, is a long standing talking point.

                    A sunset flip onto a ladder bridge had impact the first time. Now it's in most ladder matches (or at least something onto a ladder bridge) and it doesn't feel special. And once you do it in a ladder match a couple of times it's then not as big if they do it in a TLC match or something else.

                    At some point in time, WWE needs to slow down on putting them on. And it's not just because in WWE x, y, or z has been done too much - with wrestling becoming more globally available and not restricted to tap trading and stuff over the past couple of decades, and even more so since the WWE Network broke the idea of having an online platform where wrestling becomes available to watch day in, day out without a need to dig deeper or sift for quality (hard to believe it's already been 8 years since it was launched now), it's become easier to watch matches doing the same sort of thing(s) elsewhere.

                    Ultimately, there's very little 'new' stuff to do with weapons. There's very little 'new' stuff to do with a cage. Cross them over with each other and they have even less impact when you get the next cage/weapons match. I Quit matches then have to have the emotional/creative endings like the Balor/Edge one did earlier this year.

                    Maybe it's just kind of tired?


                    • #25
                      I don't think that you need to do new stuff or always be innovating to keep things interesting, necessarily. But the producers in the company (and the people in the business as a whole) need to understand that you don't have to do everything every time. It's all about how the wrestlers in the match, and the commentators treat it. If it's something that you think is going to look brutal and get that "oof" reaction from the crowd, that can be a finish or an angle and nobody is going to feel cheated by not getting to see a guy's finishing move.

                      The garbage can lid to the throat got a reaction in the moment. If that had been used as the finish for the whole match, nobody would have bitched that Becky didn't drop a leg off the top of the cage. The 3D off the top rope was treated like a transition spot. It was the guy's last spot if I remember correctly. WWE lives on Twitter, why not provide an "injury update", leave him off TV for a week and say it was because of that move. OR save that move to win a big match. Nobody kicked out of the 3D from the mat for years, doing it off the top should put a guy in traction.

                      It's all about how you sell it, and playing it totally straight. The sunset bomb to the ladder rig I think is silly on the face of it, but all they need is to use it once, bring the match to a halt, cart the guy off on a stretcher, and tell him that if he's posting on social media that he's not actually hurt, or talking to Meltzer, or anything else, he's fired. That's now a spot that, if you use it sparingly, ends the match.

                      You can completely reframe some of these moves and spots. It's about not making everything meaningless. WWE claims to be "episodic", but it almost feels like an anthology segment-to-segment and match-to-match. Nothing that just happened matters to what is going to happen and everything needs to top the last. Triple H said in his press conference that this type of thing was an issue, so hopefully they can dial it back one or two notches and turn things into what they should be. Because to me, that's part of what makes WWE's product look so fake. It's like I'm watching a Marvel fight between CGI creatures where nothing that they do to one another actually really hurts, does any damage or slows either down. It's a steady stream of sugar candy, and it's giving me cavities.
                      My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show