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  • I'm just so done with the supernatural Fiend bullshit. And coughing up black goo, and Alexa apparently having mind powers, and all of this other Marvel movie garbage they're foisting onto the public.

    And this new costume will probably be even harder for Bray to actually work in, meaning his Fiend matches aren't primed to get better. They need to abort this stupid gimmick entirely. From the beginning it was a cool look for one of the stupidest gimmicks I've ever seen in professional wrestling, and they managed to use that cool look to fool a lot of people.

    I'll be surprised if Alexa Bliss can even come back from all this bullshit.

    And the most egregious part of it all? BRAY WYATT TORE A HOLE IN THE RING BIG ENOUGH FOR A HUMAN TO FIT THROUGH AND IT WAS NEVER REFERENCED AGAIN! One video package later we're back to a normal ring and no problem. A human-sized hole in the ring isn't exactly a quick fix.

    They're going to do a a pile of self-indulgent, cinematic horseshit at WrestleMania that'll somehow be worse than their last Mania match (REMEMBER WHEN BUGS MAGICALLY PROJECTING INTO THE RING WAS OVER THE LINE!?!?!?) and hundreds of thousands more people will turn off wrestling each year as this continues to proliferate the business and we keep getting farther from professional wrestling. Kevin "Emmy hopeful" Dunn can't have a heart attack soon enough.

    The only solace I take is that hopefully whatever cinematic garbage they have planned main events one night so I can just turn the show off a half hour early.

    WWE -- the company, not the fans -- did not deserve the quality and hard work of Daniel Bryan vs Roman Reigns or McIntyre vs Sheamus last night. All four men would have been in their rights to throw up their hands and phone it in. They are true professionals trying their best to keep some semblance of classic professional wrestling featuring grown men having a fight alive, and for that they'll have my everlasting respect.

    EDIT: The NWA pay per view was the best wrestling product that aired last night.
    Last edited by Team Farrell; 03-22-2021, 11:58 AM.
    https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
    My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

    Comment


    • I don't have the amount of issues you have COACH. I feel that they at least keep that silly garbage in the corner, even if it's the main event. It's kept separate from the title, so it's tolerable in the single dose.

      Then they added train sound effects to Braun Strowman charging around the ring when driving through Elias... I have no words.

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      • Originally posted by PEN15v2 View Post
        I don't have the amount of issues you have COACH. I feel that they at least keep that silly garbage in the corner, even if it's the main event. It's kept separate from the title, so it's tolerable in the single dose.

        Then they added train sound effects to Braun Strowman charging around the ring when driving through Elias... I have no words.
        The WWE is showing exactly why you need fans.

        What is wrong with AEW's model? Every show is at Daly's Place, where they have some fans, and then they have the rest of their roster at ringside who cheer. Yes I know that the Trop is much, much larger, but the WWE could have found a smaller venue and followed what AEW did. Every RAW, and SD could have had all of the talent there at ringside, as they are all tested, and then they all could have fans, even a limited number.

        All this Fiend stuff, the stupid train sound etc, would be reduced to a minimum, AND you would get legitimate cheering.

        I am not suggesting a venue, but in the entire state of Florida, Daly's place is the only one of it's kind? Or even control the narrative at the Trop. Put fans in seats around the ring with specific camera angles instead of the wall of screens. People can argue all they want about the wrestling and the content of AEW vs WWE, but AEW has clearly the upper hand in how their product looks and sounds, taped or live with an actual audience. And this means that there is little to no nonsense, like the Fiend crap, or the train sounds.

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        • This has nothing to do with lack of fans. They do stupid shit with fans around too.

          As for having fans, it's not the same at all. AEW essentially owns Daily's Place, and nothing else takes place there. They also do 2 shows at a time, going live and taping in a 2 day period, every 2 weeks. Spoilers are out there for the taped shows, but the Meltz is respectful and doesn't make it the front page news he would if there were WWE spoilers.

          WWE is doing 3 shows weekly. If they taped, spoilers would be released. They don't own a building, they'd have to rent it. The costs will be extraordinary, not just on rent but the staff needed to work to keep crowds safe. They are a lot more mainstream, so the pushback if there is a fan related covid outbreak would be monumental. The risk is just way too high. They'll get away with it for Mania, and will take all precautions due to the amount of money they'll make from the shows. But that's not the same as weekly.

          Basically, it's not going to happen yet. They might do PPVs with audiences, but not weekly shows. Not for a couple of months at least.


          As for the Train soundFX, I really hope WWE sees how horrible the reaction was and don't push forward with this. I understand trying new ideas, and feel they've done a better job with piped in crowd reactions than expected (some are really bad, but the match related ones are usually done well enough that you can forget it's not real). This is just a step too far.

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          • The NWA show was excellent, I'll echo that.

            I don't think the lack of fans - or presence of fans, for that matter - makes any difference. WWE is gonna WWE, Dunn is gonna Dunn.

            Every Fiend segment I see, I'm constantly reminding myself that it's 20 years or so since Undertaker had lightning powers he could summon from the ceiling of the arena with his fingers or whatever. You can argue it wasn't as a egregious, but it was equally naff.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by PEN15v2 View Post
              This has nothing to do with lack of fans. They do stupid shit with fans around too.

              As for having fans, it's not the same at all. AEW essentially owns Daily's Place, and nothing else takes place there. They also do 2 shows at a time, going live and taping in a 2 day period, every 2 weeks. Spoilers are out there for the taped shows, but the Meltz is respectful and doesn't make it the front page news he would if there were WWE spoilers.

              WWE is doing 3 shows weekly. If they taped, spoilers would be released. They don't own a building, they'd have to rent it. The costs will be extraordinary, not just on rent but the staff needed to work to keep crowds safe. They are a lot more mainstream, so the pushback if there is a fan related covid outbreak would be monumental. The risk is just way too high. They'll get away with it for Mania, and will take all precautions due to the amount of money they'll make from the shows. But that's not the same as weekly.

              Basically, it's not going to happen yet. They might do PPVs with audiences, but not weekly shows. Not for a couple of months at least.


              As for the Train soundFX, I really hope WWE sees how horrible the reaction was and don't push forward with this. I understand trying new ideas, and feel they've done a better job with piped in crowd reactions than expected (some are really bad, but the match related ones are usually done well enough that you can forget it's not real). This is just a step too far.
              Lack of fans completely plays into this pre-recorded and contrived stuff.

              There is no way that the WWE would or could pull all of these fireballs, lighting rigs falling down, Fiend coming from under the ring and then 2 minutes later the ring is all healed, or the train sound effects with a live crowd. Only in backstage segments with the Fiend, not live.

              Also, yes they had Taker with the lightning, but that was not to the extent with this with the Fiend. Having no honest fan reactions allows the WWE to control the narrative to pipe in the crowd noises, when live fans might boo the segments out of the ring.

              in regards to the cost of venues. Haven't they already been paying the Rays for use of Tropicana field? So what/how would it be different if the WWE, instead of having video boards for a Thunderdome, had the same platforms, but had the NXT Talent on one tier, and the SD Talent on the Other for a RAW live show? And rotate for each show. The talent are all tested regularly so why can't they utilize that type of setup, if true fans are still too much of a risk?

              The cost is already what it is. What ever new venue they go to, they still have 3 shows a week to do, so why can't you use your own large talent base for an actual audience instead of silent video screens and piped in noise? That does not change the price or owning the venue, they are already paying for the use of the venue.

              Pen, I know you do not watch AEW, but on one side of their ring, you have the faces, and the other, the heels, of the not used talent for that particular show. And they cheer as the fans they used to be. It makes the product better, regardless of anything else.

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              • Originally posted by PEN15v2 View Post
                I don't have the amount of issues you have COACH. I feel that they at least keep that silly garbage in the corner, even if it's the main event. It's kept separate from the title, so it's tolerable in the single dose.

                Then they added train sound effects to Braun Strowman charging around the ring when driving through Elias... I have no words.
                I just saw that...for the love of god. Who is running this shit? That's a funny thing you do when you have a fan on the court playing a game during an NBA intermission. It reminds me of when the NHL tried to "improve" things by adding that glow to pucks. It's added production that isn't needed and adds no value to your show.

                Wait three months until you have fans live and try to convince them to make train noises instead. At least it would be organic...ish.

                I find all of this Fiend stuff so frustrating. It's like the epicentre of everything that the people in charge have done to completely ridicule the concept of pro wrestling over the last two years. Between the mallet and his alternate dimensions and the embarrassing stuff with Cena last year, it's been too much for a long time and I've finally seen more than I can take.

                Originally posted by Powder View Post

                The WWE is showing exactly why you need fans.

                What is wrong with AEW's model? Every show is at Daly's Place, where they have some fans, and then they have the rest of their roster at ringside who cheer. Yes I know that the Trop is much, much larger, but the WWE could have found a smaller venue and followed what AEW did. Every RAW, and SD could have had all of the talent there at ringside, as they are all tested, and then they all could have fans, even a limited number.

                All this Fiend stuff, the stupid train sound etc, would be reduced to a minimum, AND you would get legitimate cheering.

                I am not suggesting a venue, but in the entire state of Florida, Daly's place is the only one of it's kind? Or even control the narrative at the Trop. Put fans in seats around the ring with specific camera angles instead of the wall of screens. People can argue all they want about the wrestling and the content of AEW vs WWE, but AEW has clearly the upper hand in how their product looks and sounds, taped or live with an actual audience. And this means that there is little to no nonsense, like the Fiend crap, or the train sounds.
                The problem is that WWE needs to be big. It's their thing. They have to be in these big arenas and stadiums. Pretty much since they left the Manhattan Centre. I'm not saying that I completely agree with it, but it's their point of view and I understand it. That's why they went with the Thunderdome concept. It's bigger and more "Hollywood". That's WWE's MO. That's the reason that they'll book NBA arenas that seat 20k people at times they're only drawing 13k and there's a smaller building down the road. They'd rather be seen as "big time" by the general public by being in a 2/3 full United Centre than a sold out Sears Centre turning away fans.

                Remember, they had fake fans at one point, and that sucked, too. Plus, I can hear the conversation in my head. It's one I've thought about multiple times. Having your wrestlers at ringside as "fans" devalues them. It's the same concept as the pull apart brone squad, or the lumberjacks or whatnot that they do. You notice you never see anyone above a certain spot on the card in those throngs of guys, because if they are, they're just "one of the boys".

                The same thing holds true as "fans". Subconsciously, other than people who already want to like a wrestler, seeing them sitting at ringside rather than being booked on the show means they're lesser than the ones who are booked on the show. They're doing an alright job of it in NXT where some of them are friends of the wrestlers and others are trainees with those fences somewhat obscuring them.

                I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, just that I can pretty much guarantee that's the conversation that happened when they chose to move to the Thunderdome. They easily could have had a similar set up as they do at the PC, but it was a decision not to have people ringside.

                One thing I liked about the NWA show was that they had wrestlers as a fans, but you didn't see them. I assume they were local wrestlers or something. Or maybe it was production staff. But the way tat building is situated, the fans only fit on one side anyway so they just made a point of not shooting that direction. I've actually done the same thing a few times just to have crowd noise. This noise is also just as fake as what they're piping in, by the way. There's a noticeable difference in the sound between people booing because they're having fun and that's what you're supposed to do, and people booing because they hate you and wish you were dead.

                Originally posted by Oliver View Post
                The NWA show was excellent, I'll echo that.

                I don't think the lack of fans - or presence of fans, for that matter - makes any difference. WWE is gonna WWE, Dunn is gonna Dunn.

                Every Fiend segment I see, I'm constantly reminding myself that it's 20 years or so since Undertaker had lightning powers he could summon from the ceiling of the arena with his fingers or whatever. You can argue it wasn't as a egregious, but it was equally naff.
                This was a conversation that I actually had last night with a few of the boys. People constantly bringing up Undertaker makes no sense to me. You hear it all the time: "Fiend is okay because Undertaker did X", or "You don't think AEW is 'sports based' enough, don't you remember when WWE had The Undertaker?"

                The problem is, Bray Wyatt is not Mark Calloway. Neither is whatever brone people are criticizing on AEW this week. Undertaker is one of the best, most respected professional wrestlers of the past 40 years. He took a gimmick that should have been death, and made it work for 20 years. That's not on the strength of the gimmick, it's on the fact that the guy under the gimmick is one of the best.

                It was also played straight all the time. And he wasn't using whatever his generation's version of Instagram is to share photos of his kids with the public. And he lived the gimmick as much as was reasonable to do at the time -- he wasn't always pretending to be "dead" but he'd wear all black and not say much to people everywhere he went.

                We need to stop using "but Undertaker" to excuse or justify things. Undertaker was a stupid gimmick that a once in a lifetime pro wrestler turned into something legendary. It wasn't a cool look that a middle of the road guy with a good promo hides behind.
                Last edited by Team Farrell; 03-23-2021, 12:05 PM.
                https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
                My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

                Comment


                • Powder, I'm not reading your newest paragraph. You're missing the point. You're blaming the symptom for the disease. The problem isn't the lack of fans. The lack of fans might be why WWE is doing some of these specific things, but the point is WWE is going to make stupid decisions no matter what. This just gives them the excuse to try this one, but they'd find a reason to try it even with fans.

                  Comment


                  • Yes the WWE makes poor choices, giving Nia a live microphone, Reggie flipping in the middle of a match, literally burning a man alive, the handling of Retribution, etc. But all of those things would have happened with a live audience, so they are not the same style of pooor choices.

                    The specific poor choices, like 90% of the Fiend stuff, teleporting, fireballs, etc, the Train Sound effects, are because they do not have a live audience. That is the disease, the symptoms are the choices they make because they can. The WWE couldn't and wouldn't do these type of choices if a live audience was there. How can you teleport someone?

                    Even when Taker magically showed up behind someone, the live crowds reported that the lights went out for at least a minute so that Taker can get to the ring, but what we see on TV is practically instantaneous due to the delay. This is completely different from someone teleporting around the ring DURING a match, or magically morphing into a possessed figure DURING a match. The complete lack of a live audience allowed that to happen. Hence the reason or disease as you put it.

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                    • See, I think it's a little of both. You're not going to set a guy on fire in front of a live audience, but look at AEW now. They have people there and ran a "cinematic" match at their last pay per view. Who's to say that WWE wouldn't have done with with Randy and The Fiend even with a full arena?

                      Fans would definitely minimize that. But, as Pen said, they'd also come up with other terrible ideas.

                      This "cinematic" garbage needs to be left in 2020. It was a unique solution to a unique problem that they took way too far pretty much immediately, as you'd expect them to do. They've deviated so far from pro wrestling they gave Vince his wish of making movies.

                      But "The Greatest Match Ever" or whatever it was wouldn't have been shot that way in front of fans (Edge probably wouldn't have torn his triceps and missed most of the year because of "reshoots"). They wouldn't have been able to do that embarrassing stuff with Orton and Alexa in front of fans (they would have found something equally as dumb, but at least it would have been in a wrestling context).

                      I get very frustrated by the concept that anything that has two wrestlers and/or a ring is pro wrestling and because it's "fake" there are should be no rules and anything goes.
                      https://youtu.be/wue-ZFnEta8
                      My latest (and hopefully last) Covid-Era show

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                      • I sound like a broken record, but if you go back a year, you will see that I was one of the few, if only, on this forum that was not a fan of the Boneyard match. I also do not like any Cinematic match. to me those are movie or TV fights as they are all about shoots, reshoots, and camera angles.

                        A wrestling match, either a 6 star classic, or a .25 star piece of shit is predetermined, somewhat choreographed, and 'fake', but there is always 100% an element of danger. We have seen too many wrestlers get hurt because of that danger. That is what the critics of prowrestling do not understand. Predetermined does not mean fake. Look at Sheamus vs Drew from Sunday, how those two men beat the shit out of each other, but it is all fake. Tell Rick Rude, Darren Drozdoff, and Tyson Kidd that wrestling is fake.

                        Cinematic matches take all of the real life drama out of the match, and makes it Captain America vs Thanos. They all need to go.

                        If an elder wrestler cannot go anymore and a Cinematic match is their only chance left, then it's time to hang 'em up.

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                        • You went off on a tangent there that is completely irrelevant.

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                          • I was agreeing with coach about Cinematic matches

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                            • If you're WWE and want to run Edge vs Reigns vs Bryan at Mania, do you 'give away' Edge vs Bryan on TV for the shot, with them then hitting the trope of Reigns attacking them both to force a double DQ or similar? Or do you just insert him in the match, even though he just lost a competitive match to Reigns at Fastlane?

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                              • I think he'll just be inserted into it. Edge has stated he really wants to work a big feud with Bryan, which I'd imagine comes after 'Mania. Whether it's for the Universal Title who knows but I'd say it shouldn't be as Reigns still has a few challengers that'd make sense.

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