Live WWE TV Discussion Thread

[Powder]

I just hope that with the new heel persona, Kai can hit moves that actually look good. Most of her offense that I have seen since NXT has been on USA has been 2 steps up from Orange Cassidy’s. And this is not a knock on OC as that is his gimmick.

[Powder]

Charlotte can get eliminated by either Sasha or Nikki and all would be ok, but hopefully they have Rhea Ripley eliminate Charlotte.

Either way, Charlotte's exit can be as dirty as possibly with distractions and a roll up, or she eats 2-3 people's finishers prior to getting pinned.

I would want Rhea to cleanly pin Charlotte. That could one of the first big time moments for the next big thing in the Women's division.

On Smackdown last night, the had Ripley pin Charlotte while Charlotte was bridging into the Figure 8 applied onto Sasha, a brilliant way of doing that BTW. So Charlotte can easily get eliminated from the Woman's match.

Besides, Charlotte is a 10x champion. She can lose every match on TV or PPV for 6 months and still not lose one ounce of stature.

See Charlotte got pinned by a dirty finish. The Green Mist from Asuka, followed being pinned by Lacey. Yes it wasn't someone from NXT, but she still took a pin. Albeit, no where near clean.

[LifeLostInRewind]

And so we have the vehicle for Asuka and Sane vs Charlotte and ??? at TLC.

[Powder]

Asuka and Sane will drop the tag titles and it will lead to Charlotte vs Asuka II at Mania.

[PEN15v2]

Surprisingly enjoyable Raw. I loved the opening segment, and the stories throughout the night. I didn't miss Brock, despite the fact that I thought I read he was booked for the show.

Aleister VS Buddy
Owens VS Rollins
Charlotte VS Kabuki Warriors
Styles VS Orton
Lashley VS Rusev had its best night
And I sense Rey will be working an angle with a Humberto.

Key people missing from the current angles
Becky
Viking Raiders

A possible Drew McIntyre face turn?

Very nice start to the new chapter for the red brand

[Oliver]

Certainly feels like they've moved into a more positive direction. My only issue is that Raw does this from time to time and then quite often fumbles the follow up episode(s). Whether that's because of a failure to long-term plan or something else I'm not sure.

Hopefully AoP benefit from association with Rollins - hard to see a world where they do not, but they've been stuck in a rut for so long I'd started to forget about them.

I really liked that they did, what, 45 minutes or so of excellent stuff with the US title, including some great wrestling, in the middle of the show. Thought that was a great showcase. And Rey is a medical marvel to still be going as well as he is despite all his knee surgeries/injuries.

Actually, other than the first hour where everything was quickly over, I thought the wrestling last night was great - and more often than not it's that which makes a good Raw. You got 15 minutes on the Fatal Fourway, another 15 on Rey vs Styles, a bit more than that for Asuka vs Charlotte, and then a similar run of Owens vs Rollins. And you only need to look at the talent in the ring in those matches to know they were at least decent.

I think if I had one wish right now, I'd wish for two wishes - one is that Andrade gets to do something more important soon (Rey feud?) and the other is that Buddy and Black get 15 minutes in front of a hot crowd to work magic.

[Powder]

The Chicago crowd expressed my feelings on the end of the Rollins/KO match with a bullsh!t chant. The ending of the match is exactly what is wrong with RAW too much of the same old, same old.

The rest of the night was a nice reset, but in my honest opinion the match should have ended with KO pinning Rollins and then the AOP coming down to attack Owens OR Rollins low blowing KO, pinning him and then the AOP coming down to attack KO. But this non-finish, and "speculation angle" of what is the association between Rollins and the AOP has been done and re-done. Take a page from Nike and just do it.

And, I HATE absolutely HATE that we went from AJ Styles to Rey as the US Champ. As Drew McIntyre has pointed out, he still has not has any singles match for any title (at least since his return). What is the hold up on giving him a US title run? Why do we need a 45 year old Rey carrying that belt? He just has a WWE title match the previous night. You can still have Rey in a program with Andrade and/or Humberto without the US Title. I get why AEW needs Jericho to be their Champion as he was/is the one to put the show on the map, but the entire point of Survivor Series was to showcase the new, young, fresh talent. So what does RAW do? They hit the reset button for the bulk of the night, and then screw it up by giving Rey another title run.

Follow up question: Is the KO face run and subsequent build of him leading to a match against Lesnar at Mania for the WWE Title? Or will Lesnar drop the title at the Rumble to someone, via a run in from Cain Velasquez setting up Lesnar/Velasquez 3 at Mania?

[Oliver]

Because Rey is fucking dope.

Any other questions?

Like, it literally doesn't matter. Mama Benjamin could come in tomorrow and win the US title and it wouldn't matter any more or less than it would around the waist of Rey, Styles, Carillo, Murphy, Black.

They've given it to Rey because he dope, and he can go and have some baller matches with some of those younger guys to elevate them. Whether you like it or not, Rey's name alone carries a cache - I would say more so than Styles' right now - and he will help whoever he wrestles out the other side.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have bigger plans for Styles as part of this 'reset' (is it a reset? Or is it just a good Raw where things happened?) and might bump him up to be next for Brock.

[Powder]

See I do not agree. I do noT see Rey Mysterio as fucking dope. I have been watching him since WCW, and. I like him, but he is way past his prime, and he should be the veteran to put over the young talent, not to be a title holder.

We can differ on our opinion of Rey, but that’d does not mean I am wrong. He can still have the baller matches against everyone, but not as the US Title holder.

[PEN15v2]

The problem that I have with your argument, Powder, is that you're again doing the "this idea sucks, only my idea works, all other ideas are awful." I'm not against Drew McIntyre becoming US Champ. In fact, I think it would be a smart idea, if he's not going to be in the mix for the Universal title between now and the next reset at WrestleMania.

But I would have seen nothing wrong with any of the 6 people involved in the US scene yesterday becoming champion. I don't believe there is much logic in judging the plans of an angle that hasn't even started. Rey won the US Title. Maybe it'll lead to a rematch with AJ, which in all honesty is a pretty big matchup. When Rey won the 4 way, I was worried the announce team would talk about it being a dream match, because that's been overused. But that honestly is a solid match up, and as far as I remember I've never seen it before. So they could do a "TV Feud" between them, delivering good wrestling on Raw, while building the grudge between Orton and AJ. Then Rey could move onto Humberto, Ricochet, or Drew, and have an interesting angle. High flying babyface battle with the first 2, or Drew getting the angle where he can be a heel and demolish a smaller man to make his size and strength stand out.

Basically, the goal might not be to make Rey US Champ, but to let Rey drop the title to someone who is the actual plan to become US Champ.

And even if the plan is for Rey to run with the title for a year until Dominik is ready to become champ, then that's another intriguing angle.

But we can't know yet, so I don't understand why it would bother you to have a champion who is over, and can deliver matches. I know that describes a lot of guys, which is why I am not bothered by any of them being champ or in the angle. I don't understand why it would bother you so much.

Had it been Erick Rowan, I might have agreed with you. The title switch would have merely been to try to get him over again while he's doing this weird mystery pet gimmick. But from AJ to Rey feels like a lateral move. AJ is the better in ring worker these days, but Rey is a legend, and can still have very solid matches. He's more over than he's been since debuting after this angle with Brock.

[Oliver]

Nah, I think it does mean you're wrong.

Rey is the perfect choice for US title holder right now, simply because nobody else is as good as him. Ricochet could really benefit from learning how to pace a match from Rey, as could Carillo. Drew could learn how to use his size to his advantage against Rey, which is something he doesn't really do enough. And that's just the three guys in the fourway last night that could really benefit from a run with Rey. They'll also benefit far more than they will with Styles, who has been working in autopilot for the last 18 months, maybe more - I can only think of one really good AJ match in that timeframe, and that was against Daniel Bryan.

The key thing is, they are not 'just' beating Rey - they're also becoming US champion. The cache of beating Rey is big, like I said - bigger than beating Styles, which is why it makes sense to have him as champion - but becoming US champion as well, despite the low status of the belt hardly meaning it matters who holds it as I said above, puts focus on that person and lets them have some continued shine. This is where they went wrong with Andrade when he beat Rey - they didn't have a title in their feud, nor did they immediately elevate Andrade to a title, and as a result the focus on him was lost.

So, I think Rey is the perfect choice - especially if the longer term plan is for Carillo and his perfect cheek dimples or Ricochet to end up as champion, because they will learn a hell of a lot from Rey on the way given the stylistic similarities.

EDIT: I think I'm effectively saying what Pen said, but in a less logical way.

[Powder]

Again, just because both of you think it is a good move to give Rey the title and I do not, still does not make me wrong.

To me it is the Millionairs Club type of thing, where Vince feels the need to give the title to older Veterans while the younger stars cannot move up. It is no where near 'this idea sucks, only my idea works, all other ideas are awful' type of thing. I am ok with almost anyone winning titles except for veterans who do not need them, including Brock Lesnar. Legends of the business do not need titles anymore as they are beyond them. Any feud with a younger guy and a legend immediately elevates the younger guy, and the title should not a part of that. Beating the veteran then makes the younger guy more credable, and then he will move up in the rankings/stature, and then he can move into a title feud. The veteran should not be the title holder, but an obstacle to pass in order to prove that the younger guy is worthy of the title. Not both at once.


Rey is so beyond needed a title for any feud. He is a Hall of Famer, a legit legend and he is still over as hell. So why does he 'need' the title? He doesn't. Any of the scenarios you just mentioned, Pen, can and should happen without the US title.

Tell me, why does Lesnar need the Title? He doesn't. If Lesnar does the same thing as he is doing now, basically being a part time spectacle, he would still draw ratings and put butts in the seats, but he does NOT need the title. In fact, I 100% believe that he devalues the title by it not being on the primary show for almost 3 years (collectively). All titles should be featured on the broadcast, not necessarily defended, but at least the champion should have some interaction with the feud almost every week.

[PEN15v2]

But, by that description, no one needs the title.

And something Oliver said is that for a young guy to beat a legend as US Champion means more. Think about this: If the plan is for Drew to be US Champ at the Rumble, will it mean more if he beats Rey? Or would it mean more if he beat Humberto had he won it last night?

The veteran should not be the title holder, but an obstacle to pass in order to prove that the younger guy is worthy of the title. Not both at once.

That's the definition of "this idea sucks, only my idea works, all other ideas are awful."

[Powder]

I do not think that Humberto should have become US champ last night. He is not green, but he is not ready to be a WWE champion yet. I think that with the 'reset' that the WWE did with RAW last night, it would have been better and long overdue for McIntyre to become US champion and finally get a run with any singles title since his return. Then even though he technically is a veteran, he is no where near the status of Rey or Styles, and then he could become that guy with the belt that you think Rey is. Then in a few months, Humberto could beat Drew at the Rumble or Mania for the US title and Drew could then move into the WWE main event title picture by next summer.

Or just replace Andrade with Humberto in the scenario above.


But look at Corbin. I do not like him, but as you constantly point out the is one of the most over heels in the business right now. Did Kurt Angle need a title in his feud against Corbin? No. But Corbin still rides the fact that he beat and retired Angle. Would it have made any difference of Angle was a title holder? No, in my opinion.

But titles are important, and that is why AEW is trying to incorporate win/loss records into their product. They are not just throwing whomever into a title shot. They are trying to build stars the old fashioned way, but winning and getting over. We can debate till we are blue in the face about if AEW is succeeding but that is not the point, but they are trying to make the title be what it is. The pinnacle, not a prop.

The WWE title is a prop to have around the waist of a guy like Lesnar. Anyone beating Lesnar is a big deal regardless of him having a title or not.


EDIT: I just read the Young Bucks thoughts on what they think one of the major differences between AEW and RAW and SD are.

And this is one of the tings they said:

We have great wrestling matches and, you know, you can watch four to five, even sometimes six matches on the show, and these matches are all going the distance. We’re always going to have a clear victor in these matches there’s no BS finishes. It’s great pro wrestling with a payoff conclusion. And I think it’s crazy because that’s what wrestling really is like, right?

The rest of the night was a nice reset, but in my honest opinion the match should have ended with KO pinning Rollins and then the AOP coming down to attack Owens OR Rollins low blowing KO, pinning him and then the AOP coming down to attack KO. But this non-finish, and "speculation angle" of what is the association between Rollins and the AOP has been done and re-done. Take a page from Nike and just do it.

Sounds like what I thought about the main event of RAW last night.

The Chicago crowd expressed my feelings on the end of the Rollins/KO match with a bullsh!t chant. The ending of the match is exactly what is wrong with RAW too much of the same old, same old.

[PEN15v2]

So, what's you're saying is that Drew is the only acceptable person who could have won the US title yesterday?

How is that not "this idea sucks, only my idea works, all other ideas are awful." ?

Look, you can claim all these rules about only young guys should be champions, and that vets shouldn't all you want. That's your rule. That's not a consensus, that's not a rule anywhere else as far as I know, and it's incredibly flawed. And for you to bring up AEW in the same paragraph as talking about legends shouldn't be champion...