Live WWE TV Discussion Thread

[PEN15v2]

Smackdown Preview
Matches:

• LA Knight vs. mån.sôör
• Kofi Kingston vs. Sami Zayn

Segments:

• Roxanne Perez appears to pick opponent for Cora Jade on next week’s WWE NXT
• Bray Wyatt returns to SmackDown

Thoughts:

• Bray - The big news is obviously how Wyatt will return to SD. No idea what he'll do or who he'll aim his attention on, but he won't be wrestling yet. I sense this will be a lot like his original debut (or even the Fiend debut) where WWE was very patient with teasing it, and then it happened on PPV. So I don't think Bray will wrestle until Survivor Series. Perhaps Crown Jewel, but I think it'll be too rushed for that.
• Kross / McIntyre - Kross defeated Drew in a brutal big man strap match. It's possible this feud continues, but I'm interested to see if HHH's vision is to not book continuous rematches. I have a hunch this isn't exactly over, but they'll move in different directions for now.
• Ronda / Liv - Ronda is the new women's champ on SD, and I couldn't be happier. That being said, the ending to the match had be genuinely interested in where Liv goes from here. What did that smile mean? I hope it's not another match between them, but the way Liv passed out definitely leaves the door open. We haven't seen Shayna much, but there were teases with her and ronda, so I'm sensing she'll get involved with Ronda somehow. Team or feud? We shall see.
• Brutes / Imperium - Stables have been discussed in the Survivor Series thread, and it's entirely possible this continues into Survivor Series and possibly War Games. I can see Sheamus moving into a title shot vs Roman with his recent work and face turn success. It hasn't been hinted at, so I may be way off the mark. But I can't think of a better challenger at this moment for after Crown Jewel. He can be protected in a loss, give a great match, and would feel pretty fresh compared to a lot of the other people who've been calling out for a title shot.
  • This would lead GUNTHER and Imperium needing a new direction, and the world is wide open for them.
• LA Knight / MMM - I'm glad Knight is back, and I still like the potential for MMM as a team. Knight has the mic skills to really get himself over quickly, so lots of potential here. MMM could end up being a jobber team, but I like how many of the teams have been rebuilt to create some depth to the division on both brands. On Raw, Alpha Academy is relevant again. On SD, Viking Raiders had the strong heel turn and win over New Day, Lotharios got some direction with Hit Row, and MMM are in the mix as well. I'm not calling for MMM to win the titles from Usos, and I know the gimmick bugs a lot of people. But we've seen success stories with annoying heels, especially in teams, and how they can be moved up and down the card when needed.
  • I'm kind of surprised that Knight hasn't been given more mic time. Once he's in the ring with a mic with this gimmick, I predict magic will happen.
• NXT Pick Your Poison - Crossing over between the 3 brands is smart, as long as it's kept logical. This is a good gimmick. Cora has history with Natalya, so there might be something there, but the entire roster is open for Perez to choose someone.

[PEN15v2]

Where did you get the impression that Braun would challenge Roman so soon? It doesn't make a lot of sense to rush him into a feud with the top guy and obviously lose.

It's also another reason why the Logan Paul title shot is smart, as the loss to Roman won't stall his momentum, unlike most of Roman's failed challengers.

Braun, like Kevin Owens, Drew McIntyre, and Seth Rollins, is getting on track for a strong 2023. When Roman drops the title(s), the new Champ will need opponents ready to go. If Roman crushed everyone between now and Wrestlemania, and then lost to Cody, Cody's next set of challengers won't have nearly as much strength in their push after their recent losses to Reigns.


As for Gable, this is something WWE has done really well with over the last few months. There are a lot of people looking better in losing. Mustafa Ali this past week, Ciampa losing to Lashley, Sheamus after losing to Gunther...

[Oliver]

Two things that come out of Raw for me:

1. Is this Braun stuff working? I know he's only just come back, I know any of his 'matches' to date have been somewhat deliberately short and punchy, but I'm already seeing that this approach has a ceiling and it might not exceed that. It's early days, but I already don't really see where you go with Braun off the back of this mini-feud with Alpha Academy and, what seems to be a feud with Omos in the offing. I think he needs something a bit more emphatic than either of these to push him on, and while I suspect he'll have a good Rumble showing. I went from thinking he'd be a good challenge to Roman immediately after his return to now thinking he's not going to get there - or at least not very quickly.

2. On the flip side, this is feud is really working for Chad Gable. I think he's getting chances to shine even in defeat, and not just in the ring but also on the microphone. I've long been a fan of his but I think this is something that could turn him into a bigger deal in the midcard if they capitalised on his work here. I'd very easily see him as a viable challenger to Lashley, for example, in singles competition if he went from this Braun stuff to get a few wins to build him up to it.

[PEN15v2]

Go home Raw for Extreme Rules Preview
Matches:

• AJ Styles/Rey Mysterio vs Judgment Day
• Braun Strowman vs Chad Gable
• Otis vs Johnny Gargano
• Candice LaRae vs Dakota Kai

Segments:

• Contract Signing for Bianca vs Bayley
• Face Off between Riddle and Rollins with a No Contact Clause

Thoughts:

• Out of every story going, Judgment Day "need" a win most. Not only is there a lot of potential for the stable, and a lot of future potential for all involved, but the aura of the group becomes harder to take seriously with every loss. I never agree with the concept that someone or some group is buried or irreparably damaged, but it does become more and more challenging for a top level concept like this group to reach their potential with the win/loss record TJD has. This isn't to say Priest should have defeated Edge in Toronto a few weeks back, because Priest isn't on the level of defeating a Hall of Famer. But if Finn also loses to Edge, the men in the stable might be better off aiming for midcard dominance. A random Raw tag match isn't life or death, but I still suspect a win for Finn and Damian as they head towards Extreme Rules. This match will likely get the most time of all the matches currently announced, and will likely be the best of the night.
• I'm sure the former Shorty G might have a few tricks of his sleeve, but the Braun push will continue tonight. I think the big news will be how Omos will get involved. I think we're headed for a Crown Jewel match between the giants. The return of Braun almost makes Omos obsolete. While Omos is taller and more imposing in some ways, Braun's athleticism is much more impressive when you compare the two. As online workrate fans, we tend to jumble all the big men in one swooping 1star rating group. But Braun is not only huge, but very quick and athletic for his size. In terms of personality, face or heel, Braun wins as well. All is not lost for Omos, but this might be his ceiling in singles action.
• Gargano is already starting to lose my interest. Too white bread babyface for me, and the undersized indy guy gimmick only works if they add something to the roster that isn't found elsewhere, like Daniel Bryan Danielson once did. Teaming with Owens feels like a step down for KO. I don't think this duo is meant to be a full time thing, and just a way to get Gargano elevated, so I can't say I'm upset, but there is a time limit to how long I will be invested in the combo.
• Candice vs Dakota will be a solid women's match. Both are good, but neither have been on the Raw roster for very long. This will need some involvement from Damage Ctrl and perhaps any combination of Asuka/Bliss/Belair to get the live audience invested.
• Contract signings never go as planned, so we shall see how Bayley and Bianca change things up. I'm guessing a brawl involving the "stables", maybe a reveal as to who might side with the Damage Ctrl for the rumored War Games match between both sides
• Rollins and Riddle have had a enough brawls and attacks that the no contact clause is smart here. I don't know if Daniel Cormier will be part of anything tonight, maybe a recorded "promo" of some kind.

[PEN15v2]

Smackdown Preview
Matches

• Shotzi vs Bayley
• Sami Zayn / Solo Sikoa vs Madcap Moss / Ricochet
• Hit Row vs Los Lotharios

Thoughts

• Hurricane - I didn't click on the headline, but apparently there are travel issues and the roster will be reduced tonight. My guess is WWE will front the bills to get the advertised people to the show, and then use whoever else is able to make it.
• Sami in the Bloodline - the story that's has the internet talking. I'm still not a fan of Sami as a babyface, and other than a smarmy annoying twat heel, I think he's an El Generico indy worker. Despite his charisma, he's never had a character I cared about. All that being said, this story is connecting because Sami is great in his role. So is Jey and everyone in the Bloodline, but Sami is the perfect balance of heel who is being used and doesn't deserve his spot in the faction, and babyface who will be cheered if/when the obvious turn occurs.
• Imperium vs Brutes - Not sure if they'll have a spot on SD tonight, but the 6 man tag Donnybrook is booked for Extreme Rules next Saturday. I'm still impressed at how seamless the transition was for the Brutes to turn face after Clash at the Castle. We all knew that match would be the brawl it ended up being, but the Stone Cold loss into face turn for Sheamus (and therefore his stable) wasn't really discussed or predicted. I don't even know if it was planned by WWE creative, but no matter what, it's created a great dynamic on the show, and I think they have potential to milk this faction feud for great ring action whenever they need to get the crowd into the show (**like needing to wake them up after a Liv Morgan match).
• Hit Row - I want to like them, and all 3 of the current members have shown the ability to get over and stay enjoyable. But this run isn't doing it for me at all. I think Top Dolla needs a bit more focus, and Adonis needs to have some competitive matches.
• Bayley - I'm probably going to upset a couple of people here, but Bayley is really overrated by online fans. Always has been. Her innocent baby face character was great, and perfect for her abilities. She was solid in the ring, and didn't need to do a lot of mic work to stay relevant. But since turning heel (and no, not just since returning from injury), she's average in almost every way. I knwo she has fans, so I'm not saying anyone is wrong for enjoying her DING DONG HELLO Karen haircut run, but it didn't connect with me. She was annoying without it being engaging. I didn't want to watch her get beat up, I just didn't want to watch her. Sasha, despite my criticisms, was the star of their team. Damage CTRL is a bit more interesting because the stablemates are more interesting. But Bayley being the focal point isn't. There may be a ring rust issue, but I don't think it's a major drop from the pre-injury Bayley because she wasn't that high caliber in the first place. And unfortunately Shotzi is more hit than miss, especially in the ring. So I don't expect this match to be very good.

** immature PEN underhanded insult

[PEN15v2]

The Jey vs Sami stuff is great. It's both at the forefront, but also subtle. It's been really engaging. I have to credit WWE for making me care about uber dork Sami Zayn.

And the Bloodline will be part of Raw tonight on some capacity.

Raw Preview
Matches:

• AJ Styles vs Sami Zayn
• Matt Riddle vs Damian Priest
• Iyo Sky vs Bianca Belair
• Seth Rollins vs Rey Mysterio
• Johnny Gargano and Kevin Owens vs Alpha Academy

Thoughts:

• White Rabbit - Last Friday's background QR code led people to coordinates for tonight's Raw in Edmonton, and the words Patricide and Coal associated with this viral style campaign. On top of that but the song White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane has been played at TV and live events to empty arenas or between commercials. There were "flyers" left on vehicles at Smackdown's event with the white rabbit and Edmonton coordinates.
  • Whatever the point is (and I know we all have guesses and ideas), it's a good time of year to draw this out a week or two more, as we'll be getting the "Season Premieres" for Raw and Smackdown on Oct 7 and Oct 10
  • I'll unfortunately be missing it live on Oct 7th as it's Canadian Thanksgiving weekend, which aligns with my birthday early the next week, so I never ever get to watch wrestling live as it's just packed with family obligations
• Loose Brand split rules - I understand that with the titles jumping between brands that we'll see certain people challenging for these titles also jumping from time to time. But when Bayley is on Smackdown, I scratch my head. Sami on Raw is a more egregious bending of the rules. I'm not against it, but I wish it would be addressed somehow to explain why.
• Not sure if I like the Gargano/Owens team idea. If it's just a TV angle to get Johnny Wrestling over, great. But I am invested in the current KO story, and I am apprehensive that Gargano will bog that down.
• Judgment Day - I would like them to add another member. It doesn't have to be immediately, but this stable doesn't have the strongest win/loss record and a new member would be a reasonable kayfabe way to turn things around. The Dominic story should be at the forefront, so it doesn't need to be a massive name.
• Dominic - Nuclear heat for Dom last week. I was explaining elsewhere that this angle wouldn't work with most people, but with Dom it's near perfect. What's strange is that it doesn't feel right because there's no star quality to Dom so far. And yet, no one else could pull this off near as well. The fact that he's not special, and that he possibly only has the job due to nepotism, all factor into how hated he is right now. It's similar to the Rocky Sucks time for Maivia (and NO, I'm not comparing Dom to the Rock), in that Dom is disliked for genuine reasons, and makes him a good heel in how the story uses those factors. I'm not sure where this goes, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the pinnacle of Dom's career. I hope he makes the most of it.

[Oliver]

I really, really liked what they did with Sami this week. There's so much going on in the Bloodline itself, too, the addition of Solo is interesting and opens opportunities, and the fact it seems like specifically Jey but not Jimmy is against Sami being in there is a wrinkle that can be developed.

[PEN15v2]

Smackdown Preview

• Matches
  • Braun Strowman vs Otis
  • Usos vs Brawling Brutes - Men's Smackdown Tag Team Championship
• Segments
  • Return of Roman Reigns

Thoughts

• Braun is now the Monsters of all Monsters, or something.... I preferred the Monster Among Men, but I guess they have their reasons. The new music isn't connecting with me yet either.
• Liv vs Ronda 3 is no Austin Rock.
• NXT North American title is no longer in the Bloodline. This is really fascinating to me as it really opens up a few ideas for Solo:
  • Challenging Gunther - likely unsuccessfully, but would still be a good TV angle they can use to headline a Smackdown, and could lead to a face off between the leader of Imperium and the Head of the Table
  • Sami and Solo are on the same page, so they could end up being the Enforcers for the Usos, with interesting possibilities where Solo/Sami end up being a tag team. I highly doubt they'd get a title shot out of it, but it could create interesting TV that leads to other possibilities of Sami vs the Usos
• Raquel and Shotzi might be becoming a team... I'm not a fan of Aliyah, but I think I preferred the combo of her and Raquel. Shotzi is better than Aliyah and more intriguing as a character/look, but she has n't had a lot of focus on the main roster, and needs something to get me to care.
• 9:23 - Apparently another installment of the White Rabbit mystery will take place tonight, likely at 9:23, according to the QR Code tease from Raw.
  • I was explaining to my wife just this week about how the original Saw movie viral marketing campaign hooked me in so much, and how wrestling is one of the few venues for that to still work for me. The subtlety of the QR code on Raw is fascinating.

[PEN15v2]

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I like that not every PLE needs a world title defense. Looking back at the era where that was common, you saw so many rushed and uninteresting challenges. Not all of them, but many.

Extreme Rules or Crown Jewel could also end up having a Home contenders match involving all the people you mentioned, setting up something for Survivor Series. There's no need to rush any story just because we were so used it in previous eras. There are so many avenues that can be taken to get to the next Roman story related title defense. Extreme Rules can have heated matches between Riddle and Seth, Drew and Kross, Owens and Theory... and the title match doesn't feel like it would have added much because those are all isolated rivalries. We could have had any of those stories take a break to allow a challenge, like Owens vs Roman, but then the whole match we'd be waiting for the Theory portion because that's where the story would go generally. Is another Owens screwjob championship match loss really what any of these stories or people involved need?

My sense from HHH's booking is that the effort is being made to create several top level challengers, mostly from the ashes of defeats from Roman's reign. And the way to revive Owens, Braun, Seth, and Drew is to keep them away from Roman for now. Once they actually challenge, and lose (which is the most logical result), all the rebuilding we've seen will have for naught.

Roman is likely only at risk of truly losing at WrestleMania (though I've seen interesting fantasy booking involving a ladder match where the titles get separated by both particpants), so he's not about to lose clean to any of the people you mentioned. But they will need to be strong contenders once a new champion is around. That might be after said fantasy booked ladder match, or after WrestleMania.


For the record, it is unlikely I'll watch Crown Jewel. I think this match has potential, but the likely hood of me watching at the time it'll take place is low. And unlike Clash at the Caslte, this result is not going to be 50/50 toss up.




Raw Preview
Booked matches and segments:

• Bobby Lashley vs Seth Rollins - US Championship
• Kevin Owens vs Austin Theory

Other talking points

• Dominik and Judgment Day injured Edge last week (Edge being injured to write him off TV is a bit tiresome at this point)
• Men's Tag Titles are likely going to be Smackdown focused with new contenders in the Brawling Brutes
• Damage CTRL continues the rivalry with Bianca
• More from Gargano or Omos, who won matches last week?

[Oliver]

Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily bitching about the shows themselves existing, Pen - I'm not sure if that was in response to my post or more general - I just kind of dislike that they come in with these flashy ideas, and Paul vs Reigns is one of them, but almost always out of the blue for the cycle to the shows, then subsequently dropped.

Like, they had something greatly interesting going on around challengers for Roman, and could have easily carried a whole PPV (Extreme Rules) around a main event that fed into that. There's McIntyre, Kross, Rollins, Owens, Braun that they could have put into an excellent gauntlet match for the last 45 minutes or so of that show to lead into a challenger at the Saudi show. And now they're going to essentially take the urgency from that sort of story away for a six week or so 'challenger of the month' storyline with Logan Paul. I suspect WWE will find a way to keep these things trucking along in the background because they often do - I think it frustrates me personally as a fan not because there's something I want to see and have mentally fantasy booked the minutiae of and then suddenly it's going against that, but because I've watched WWE start setting up these threads and I want to see them followed to conclusion, then I'm essentially being told to just wait for this one off thing to happen.

And now that I've said that, I've realised I probably am bitching about the shows themselves existing!

[PEN15v2]

Here's the fallacy of some of the complaining fans (this doesn't mean all the complaints aren't valid):
Saudi shows are never built towards general IWC tastes. Not even once, unless you consider the Greatest Royal Rumble Ever, which I don't. It's always all about spectacle, and sometimes they tie into current stories, but usually they don't. You don't need to watch; you can skip it or even stop watching WWE entirely.

And yet, the bitching continues. The entitlement of that portion of the audience is just laughable, and it's why WWE continues to ignore it.

[Oliver]

Lord, I hate these Saudi shows. For non-Saudi Arabia reasons, too - they just always seem to happen in such a weird little bubble that seems unrelated to anything else going on in WWE.

Thought it was good to see Heyman and Paul jockeying on the Mike, though.

[Powder]

I ask this as someone who's only skimmed the headline news, but are they really setting up for Logan Paul vs Roman Reigns?

I cannot imagine so, unless it is for a show like the Saudi one, where it is more about spectacle than plotlines.

I guess I was correct.....https://wrestlingheadlines.com/wwe-r...r-crown-jewel/

[PEN15v2]

Speaking of..
Smackdown Preview

• Logan Paul appearance
• New Day vs Street Profits vs Alpha Academy vs Los Lotharios - 4 way rematch for tag team title Home contenders

[Powder]

I cannot imagine so, unless it is for a show like the Saudi one, where it is more about spectacle than plotlines.