Live WWE TV Discussion Thread

[Powder]

Who is the 5th good girl?
Bianca
Alexa
Asuka
Mia
????

[Oliver]

I see a couple of ways they could go with the Damage CTRL vs Good Guys WarGames. It seems clear now that Cross is going to be on the Damage CTRL side, so it is just that fifth member.

Based on last night's Raw and the new addition to The OC, it could be that Rhea goes on the DC side, and the new face on the good guys side (trying to keep spoiler free...) to make it 5 vs 5.

Rhea vs Beth would be logical, but I'm not sure it's going to happen soon.

[PEN15v2]

Raw Preview
Crown Jewel Fallout:

• Bobby Lashley lost to Brock Lesnar
• Damage CTRL won back the tag titles, while Bayley lost her chance at the Raw women's title
• Judgment Day defeated AJ and the Good Brothers
• Omos lost to Braun
• Though they spend most of their time on Smackdown, Bloodline might have some involvement leading to Survivor Series

I think it's pretty obvious that we will be getting Rhea vs Beth pretty soon. I'm guessing at a grudge match at Survivor Series.

For War Games, I think Nikki Cross is aligning with Damage CRTL, but they'll need a 5th. Same for Bianca, Alexa, Asuka, and Candice.

[PEN15v2]

What would stronger/better booking look like for Reigns?

Clean wins instead of Bloodline interference, more dominating wins instead of close fights,

I guess I just feel a little concerned that despite Triple H being an "old school NWA guy", he's also been learning from Vince for 25 years and god knows Vince hasn't been able to get people over worth a damn for a decade or more. He finally made it happen with Roman, but goddamn was it ever a trek to get there.

Theory would be a guy that should probably be beating everyone right now. He should probably be getting a touch more serious right now, though his age still allows him to pull it off. Roman is 37 and already doing the part time thing. He might be fully retired by 45. Theory is a guy that you could be anointing in the main event of WrestleMania three years from now, but that process should be starting now. They should be getting his ass over, without shoving him down peoples throats.

He'd be a great candidate for a program with Edge, where maybe he doesn't win out in the end but he picks up some victories along the way and establishes that he's Edge's equal. Maybe he gets that match with Cena, and steals one just barely. He wins, but they're not trying to get you to buy that he's "better" than Cena...yet. He should probably even be mixing it up with guys like Kevin Owens. It's a shame that Orton isn't around, because he'd be a great guy to work with Theory -- again, maybe Theory doesn't beat Orton clean in the middle at the end of it all, but just keep establishing him as able to go toe-to-toe with the biggest stars.

I'm a little worried that because Theory is a Vince project, and Triple H is bringing in all "his" guys (not a critique either, that's exactly what you'd expect a new booker coming in to a territory to do), that Triple H is going to use Theory to try and get over guys that'll never have a fraction of the upside of Theory, assuming he can go back and undo it all later but he might not be able to.

He might be able to enough to get the current fanbase on board, but not enough to make the next John Cena. I see Cena potential in Theory.

It's also not insignificant to note the difference in how Reigns was treated early on and how Theory is being treated. When he was a heel that was kicking ass, people got behind Reigns (and then they fumbled it for a few years). But if they'd brought him in as the guy who's obviously got the star potential, but loses more than he wins despite having a gimmick to hang his hat on, he probably never would have reached that initial status that made them push him as a big single babyface to begin with.

I still don't see how Theory was a Vince guy. Theory was first in NXT, which is the HHH project. Then he was called up by Paul Heyman during the short time he ran Raw. When Vince took Raw back over, Theory was dropped back to NXT and again became a HHH guy. Theory got called back up by Vince later on. There is way more of a connection with HHH than Vince, and I think people are conflating the kayfabe angle of McMahon mentoring Theory as more legitimate than it was. Obviously Vince saw something in Theory, much like you and many do. So why wouldn't HHH see it also, especially since he signed him before Vince ever saw him.

There's absolutely nothing to be worried about. Theory has mixed it up with Kevin Owens, and last night with Seth Rollins, and been booked to be just not quite ready to be at their level. Very similar to how Cena was booked in 2003, who lost on PPV to Brock, Undertaker, and Angle.

[Team Farrell]

I guess I just feel a little concerned that despite Triple H being an "old school NWA guy", he's also been learning from Vince for 25 years and god knows Vince hasn't been able to get people over worth a damn for a decade or more. He finally made it happen with Roman, but goddamn was it ever a trek to get there.

Theory would be a guy that should probably be beating everyone right now. He should probably be getting a touch more serious right now, though his age still allows him to pull it off. Roman is 37 and already doing the part time thing. He might be fully retired by 45. Theory is a guy that you could be anointing in the main event of WrestleMania three years from now, but that process should be starting now. They should be getting his ass over, without shoving him down peoples throats.

He'd be a great candidate for a program with Edge, where maybe he doesn't win out in the end but he picks up some victories along the way and establishes that he's Edge's equal. Maybe he gets that match with Cena, and steals one just barely. He wins, but they're not trying to get you to buy that he's "better" than Cena...yet. He should probably even be mixing it up with guys like Kevin Owens. It's a shame that Orton isn't around, because he'd be a great guy to work with Theory -- again, maybe Theory doesn't beat Orton clean in the middle at the end of it all, but just keep establishing him as able to go toe-to-toe with the biggest stars.

I'm a little worried that because Theory is a Vince project, and Triple H is bringing in all "his" guys (not a critique either, that's exactly what you'd expect a new booker coming in to a territory to do), that Triple H is going to use Theory to try and get over guys that'll never have a fraction of the upside of Theory, assuming he can go back and undo it all later but he might not be able to.

He might be able to enough to get the current fanbase on board, but not enough to make the next John Cena. I see Cena potential in Theory.

It's also not insignificant to note the difference in how Reigns was treated early on and how Theory is being treated. When he was a heel that was kicking ass, people got behind Reigns (and then they fumbled it for a few years). But if they'd brought him in as the guy who's obviously got the star potential, but loses more than he wins despite having a gimmick to hang his hat on, he probably never would have reached that initial status that made them push him as a big single babyface to begin with.

[LibSuperstar]

What would stronger/better booking look like for Reigns?

[PEN15v2]

My point isn't that the booking has been perfect. Merely that it's not the doom and gloom the extreme side of the IWC tends to panic with.

Everyone, including Roman, could be booked better/stronger. But we've seen the negative side of halting the momentum of upcoming talent quite often during the runs of Cena and Reigns. I think it's genuinely really hard to pinpoint a time where the overall booking for the main event talent has been better than right now (an argument could be made for the Attitude Era, but I would say that era got weakened by having the title moving to too many people too often). Despite two years of dominance, there's still more than a handful of credible new champions of the trigger is pulled. That includes Theory. There's no doubt that MITB runs become dependent on weakness until the eventual successful cash in, but they still work out more often than not.

I also think it's funny that the theory is that HHH thinks of Gargano as a real HHH project, despite Theory also being a HHH/NXT project.

Gargano as a babyface is really hot right now, but I think most of us know there's a time limit to how long a white meat underdog babyface without a character will succeed. Theory is the real long term project. Gargano gets the short term push, while the long game is played with Theory.

[Team Farrell]

Austin Theory - Online complaints about his losing streak are hilarious to me. No long term MITB contract holder has had a great record before cashing in. Edge, Punk, Dolph, Miz.... they all lost big matches before successfully cashing in. Heels don't need wins to get over. I'm not saying losing can't hurt him, but losing hasn't hurt him so far. He can be booked for a match vs Drew McIntyre tonight, and it would still be a 50/50 bet on who might win. Theory is fine. He's not riding the same push as he was before HHH took over, but the amount of people who have been pushed really well since then more than averages everything out. Plus, he's not hurt by the attention being elsewhere. He's plateaued, or been stagnant. That can be bad, but in this case can be fixed easily. Seriously, one big moment or win on TV rights that ship without issue. That's the gift of a heel's push. He can attack Roman from behind tonight, and run away through the crowd without any promo time, and he's immediately back where he was.

I think that's a big part of the problem. MITB worked for a guy like Edge because he'd been established in the company for 7-8 years featured strongly beforehand, and most of the year leading up wasn't all that bad for Edge.

If you're going to win the belt, you can lose matches along the way to set up obvious challengers when you're Champion, but overall you should be beating most people on the level of the current Champion and below. Especially when you aren't as well established.

They've got a potential next top star on their hands, and overall he probably shouldn't be losing to people like Johnny Gargano who will never have that level of upside, whether he could potentially cash in MITB successfully or not.

Yes, they could just strap a rocket to Theory tomorrow and "all is forgotten", or have him win the belt from Roman in Saudi Arabia after his match with Paul and most of their current fans would just roll with it because that's how they've trained fans for 15 years. But he'd be in a better place when he reaches the destination if he were winning, pushed and featured as a guy steadily working his way to the top, as opposed to putting over Gargano.

[PEN15v2]

Raw Preview
Matches:

• Bianca Belair vs Nikki Cross
• Matt Riddle vs Otis - Trick or Street Fight

Segments:

• Roman Reigns and the Bloodline appearance
• Brock Lesnar appearance

Thoughts

• Trick Or Street Fight - These TV matches are often dumb fun. As long as it's well placed in the show, should be good. Not anything that will be part of a "best of 2022" compilation, but enjoyable enough to help a sometimes long 3 hour show move without feeling like 3 hours.
• Bloodline - The Sami/Jey aspect continues to be the biggest story relating to the main event picture, which is odd. Not in a bad way, but when we have huge stars booked for the show like Roman and Brock, and the general anticipation is based on career midcarders in Zayn and the Sober Uce, it speaks to the strength of the story. The way the Smackdown segment went will be remembered for years (I say it might win a Slammy or generic WWE online award, and be held in the same regard as the New Day vs Uso rap battle for online fame), and will obviously continue tonight. I sense we might see some story advancement for Survivor Series in particular. Despite the Sheamus injury angle, I'm still not sold that Wargames will be Brutes vs Bloodline, but I think we'll see some Raw involvement in that story and we'll see who might be part of if tonight. (I still see Kevin Owens being a big part of this)
  • Also, if the Wargames will be 4 vs 4 (instead of 5 vs 5, which has happened), then the Bloodline technically has 1 person too many. I suspect we'll see a story about Sami or Jey being asked to sit the match out, further dividing the stable. Hothead Jey might be undependable, or he might be an asset in violence, leaving Sami to be "Coach" on the outside.
• Sanity Cross? - A few are wondering if Nikki is reverting to her previous gimmick as the maniacal member of the NXT stable Sanity. It's possible, but I think it'll be closer to new a version of Nikki that happens to tap into her unstable history. Bianca vs Charlotte and Bianca vs Rhea are the top candidates to be the next main event program for the Women's Title (likely for WrestleMania) so Nikki turning fully heel will be a good program to bridge the gap. I can see Nikki joining, or at least aligning with, Damage CTRL to help form the Wargames team for the heel women.
• OC / ? vs Judgment Day / Rhea - With all the returns under the HHH creative umbrella, lots of talk about who might come back to help the Good Brothers and AJ Styles in the numbers game. Mia Yim is a candidate, Doudrop being repackaged as Piper Niven has been mentioned, and Beth Phoenix owes Rhea a beatdown. I wouldn't be surprised if Rhea vs Beth ends up being a well hyped match for Survivor Series, or maybe Royal Rumble, so I think we'll see her return sooner rather than later. If the goal is Rhea vs Bianca for WM, then Rhea should get the big win with plenty of time before the LA extravaganza. It might be overbooking if she beats Beth and then wins the Rumble in the same night, but it could also be Beth winning, and Rhea regaining her heat with the Rumble win, leading to a Beth vs Rhea rematch at Elimination Chamber. Lots of possibilities, and no real need to rush. Rhea is easily the most protected non-champion in the women's division, and is golden for whenever they pull the trigger on her challenging for a title.
  • All that being said, whoever might help even the odds in this current feud will be fodder, much like Emma was to Ronda on Friday night. Mia Yim or Doudrop can be assets in the division and get a solid pop whenever they confront the Judgment Day, but they won't be derailing the Ripley push anytime soon.
• Austin Theory - Online complaints about his losing streak are hilarious to me. No long term MITB contract holder has had a great record before cashing in. Edge, Punk, Dolph, Miz.... they all lost big matches before successfully cashing in. Heels don't need wins to get over. I'm not saying losing can't hurt him, but losing hasn't hurt him so far. He can be booked for a match vs Drew McIntyre tonight, and it would still be a 50/50 bet on who might win. Theory is fine. He's not riding the same push as he was before HHH took over, but the amount of people who have been pushed really well since then more than averages everything out. Plus, he's not hurt by the attention being elsewhere. He's plateaued, or been stagnant. That can be bad, but in this case can be fixed easily. Seriously, one big moment or win on TV rights that ship without issue. That's the gift of a heel's push. He can attack Roman from behind tonight, and run away through the crowd without any promo time, and he's immediately back where he was.

[PEN15v2]

Raw Preview
Matches:

• Bianca Belair VS Bayley

That's it...

[Team Farrell]

Shit, Elias is back and Corbin isn't happy anymore? Sign me the fuck up. I might start watching regularly again.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lashley vs Brock be something a little different than both men's usual matches. Maybe start with some MMA-style stuff before it devolves into the Brock craziness. Then they could get an extra few minutes out of the match, too.

[PEN15v2]

Not quite sure the Elias return worked, but I think it's too early to decide it's going one way or another.

I wonder if the last hour had timing issues. It may have been planned, but both the back to back Miz/Dexter match and the Elias segments gave me blue balls. Hyped segments that didn't deliver. I think had it been just one of those advertised segments that didn't deliver it would have been less noticeable. But to have the Dexter/Miz match cancelled and then have the Elias segment end without any singing was a mistake.


Bobby vs Brock might have MMA elements to it. It did involve the kimura lock during the first attack, and that's nto something Brock has brought out often, so it might play into the match. It certainly won't be a Fight Pit or submission match type thing, but I think they'll mix in some MMA into the wild brawl.

I'm not sure about the Ali stuff. I felt like ending the show with him as the star of the closing segment felt rushed. I'm not sure what exactly felt off about it, but it had an "out of nowhere" element to it. And I don't mean that there was no story reason, but for someone who's been struggling to get TV time, and hasn't had any momentum in a logn time to suddenly be mixing it up with perennial Home contender to the top titles felt jarring. Overall, it's good, but maybe there should have been a win or story for Ali to raise his stock a bit first.
All that being said, Ali vs Rollins will be awesome.

[Oliver]

Brock vs Bobby confirmed for Crown Jewel and building well, I think. Hopefully it's a 10 minute or so sprint of big men slapping man meat which equates to little more than a brawl. I don't want to see them work an MMA style match, even though I get that that's where a lot of the appeal is in a way, as I think they are both better than that and it won't be as hard hitting as people will want. I think they'll hint at it in the early part of the match and then move past it into something more 'WWE' style hard hitting match.

Love them putting a bit of focus on Ali last night with teasing a potential feud with Rollins. He's an ideal opponent for him, in my opinion, and has shown a really good in ring ability that will mesh with Rollins, I believe.

Not quite sure the Elias return worked, but I think it's too early to decide it's going one way or another.

Was glad to see Corbin back - I think he's actually ideal as a WWE guy, he's never going to be flashy but you know what and who Baron Corbin is and what you're going to get with him. Adding JBL should be a fun move as well, and I think it'll work well with him.

[PEN15v2]

Raw Preview
Matches:

• Seth Rollins vs Matt Riddle - US Title
• Dexter Lumis vs The Miz - If Lumis wins, he earns a WWE contract
• The OC vs Alpha Academy

Segments:

• Brock Lesnar appearance
• Return of Elias

Thoughts:

• Brock vs Bobby - probably for Crown Jewel, and that's a great attraction match for this kind of show. No matter how much the world of wrestling evolves and changes, WWE is still the best place for giants showcasing their superhuman strength and athleticism. Match probably won't be a technical masterpiece, but it'll be a lot of fun for 5-8 minutes.
• I love the Elias character, and I think there's more potential for him than the Ezekial comedy stuff, but I think WWE is going to be lacking levity soon if every character that had a comedy edge to them gets turned serious. So far the balance is working, as there are still people like The Miz and Maryse getting caked for laughs. But I don't think the Ezekial character should just be erased. I don't know what the solution is, but the return of Elias is bittersweet.
• Rollins vs Riddle - This is a great modern era feud. It's basically over, and both men will likely move in new directions after this, but you can fill in a random Raw or PPV with a rematch and the heat will be there with little effort. Both men looked good coming out of it, the matches were mostly strong (Fight Pit was the weakest, and the gimmick just didn't work the way everyone had hoped). This match makes sense in the moment, as Riddle got the last win over the new US Champ, but I sense they'll each have new opponents by Crown Jewel or Survivor Series.

[PEN15v2]

HHH having a dressing room is great. I don't think there needs to be a consistent authority figure, but letting him be presented like Vince with his office is a smart way to bridge the regimes.

I'm liking Omos vs Braun, though I know the match will be average at best and hated online. Not sure if it'll be for Crown Jewel or Survivor Series.

I see a lot of praise for Roxanne Perez, and I can see why, but she's among the many women that work a style that's overly choreographed, influenced by the Adam Coles of the wrestling world. Anyways, I'm not yet a fan.

I'm surprised that they turned LA knight heel. Smackdown feels heel heavy already, and I don't see MMM turning face.