Live WWE TV Discussion Thread

[The Cook]

I'm not someone who necessarily buys into the whole "guys from 10-15-20 years ago shouldn't be on top or beating young guys" but the two top guys in NXT this time last year just lost to guys who weren't even on top top in WWE 14-15 years ago, they were a level below the likes of Cena and Orton and Edge and HHH.

Kross and Lee don't particularly appeal to me but Jeff Hardy is a guy they seemingly only re-signed to keep him from AEW and while I've enjoyed Lashley's last 14 months or so him beating Lee so quickly was ludicrous and as knoM pointed out he is someone who could've easily challenged Lashley after he beats Goldberg at SummerSlam.

[PEN15v2]

And I thought it was a great Raw to follow up the outstanding MITB show. I can already hear the complaints of "wasting" Lee and Kross, but it's likely going to be the same short sighted fans who don't understand the concept of stories. Despite the claims from many of these same fans wanting long drawn out patient stories like in AEW, they sure seem to shit on stories that haven't even been giving a chance to get started.

We saw great wrestling matches. We saw great build to the next PPV. We got great pop moments. We saw stories continue to raise the stars involved, and we got a new star established. I know you had more than one complaint, but to those who have an issue with Kross losing his debut, they forget it's obviously night 1 of an ongoing story. If Lee's loss bothers someone so much, then they are short sighted and aren't thinking of where the loss can go from here (especially since it's been here where I've seen the idea of Lee joining MVP and Lashley more than other social circles.). If you didn't enjoy Elias vs Ryker while the live audience was all in (despite the claims from many online that Ryker would be booed out of the building once there were live crowds), then you aren't watching the right show for your taste in wrestling.

AEW goes for that "this is epic#%~%#" feel for all the shows I watched, but in the end they were below average and not to my taste. Raw, I go in expecting a standard WWE show, which I'll be the first to admit isn't meant to be a 10/10 wrestling show, but rather a tool to get us invested in the 10/10 wrestling PPV. There are many ways to accomplish this, and everyone has their taste. But there wasn't a single match or result that didn't make me more invested in the next chapter. What will Kross do to Hardy? How will Lee recover? Sign me up for Priest vs Sheamus for the US title! More Rhea vs Charlotte with Rhea finally being in the cemented role of babyface!

"smart" fans aren't so smart when they claim losses are the death of anyone. Losses don't ruin anyone's careers. The real issue is how WWE follows up after the loss. It's obvious Kross will be just fine. Hardy's head will be on a pike by the end of this story. Lee, it's much more open ended, but the fact that they had him return in such a major fashion leads me to believe it won't just end there. There's something coming from the loss. Will it work or not? I can't predict. But at this point he's fine, and the regular online BS complaints won't change that.

[Team Farrell]

I'm not sure I'd have beaten Kross in his first appearance on Raw. I probably would have had him squash someone this week, take liberties with them and have the veteran Jeff Hardy make the save because he's had to deal with people like Kross his entire career.

Then next week we get the flash win over Kross. It gets us to the same place -- Kross eventually decimating Hardy and sending him on his way to a vacation, another brand or AEW with his brother -- but doesn't start with the sour taste. I can certainly see their line of thinking though that Jeff is the established star and a loss to him doesn't hurt.

A lot of people aren't going to like this, but I don't think Keith Lee is going to be a top star in WWE. I don't think Vince will be sold on him. The section of the fanbase that only cares about "good" matches love him and think he's a mega star waiting to happen. But I think he lacks a lot on promos and his demeanor doesn't match his appearance. It reminds me of when Rowan was trying to be a vintner. He's an intelligent monster, and I understand that, but something just does not jive for me.

I think the US Title will be his ceiling, unless he's around for a really long time.

There's something that a lot of people forget about Ryker: a big chunk of the crowd wouldn't know, remember or care about his "controversial" tweet. A big chunk of the crowd wouldn't even find it to be a controversial statement. This isn't Hogan getting booed at WrestleMania in front of a mostly "smart" crowd because it's the thing to do. He's new to WWE, he's a big jacked up guy and as much as people think he can't work, let's not equate being able to work with being a gymnast. He's the kind of guy that kids are going to be awestruck by. Can you say the same about someone like Tozawa?

I think that a lot of hardcore smart fans need to realize that WWE is not programming to them. They're going for mass appeal. And looking at their overall product, I think they're hitting that mark quite well.

[knoM]

I agree with you

My issue isn’t Lee losing to Lashley but same concept as Kross. Re-introducing him with a loss isn’t the right move IMO.

[PEN15v2]

It's a questionable move, no doubt. But it's not a bad move (necessarily). It becomes a bad move if they can't follow up with it. Look at John Cena: he lost to Kurt Angle in his first match. Obviously, plenty of differences. I'm not saying they are identical. But I am saying that the loss didn't hurt him because of how the story went after that loss.

COACH said it, but Hardy could lose in the end of the feud and switch brands. What if tonight on NXT, we get Kross opening the show with a promo, the fans shitting on him for losing, and out comes Jeff Hardy. And Joe/Regal announce Jeff is moving to NXT and is the next challenger at Takeover. The next match could be more competitive, with Jeff winning and staying in NXT as veteran champion, while Kross moves to Raw.

OR, the more likely scenario is next week, Kross obliterates Jeff. Kross could even lose next week by DQ for being too brutal, therefore leading into a marquee match up at SummerSlam or Takeover (if Jeff switches brands).

My point is even if Kross loses clean to Jeff at the end of the road, Kross isn't hurt. The follow up is the key. Making Kross and the story matter after the loss isn't hard.

This isn't to say WWE will succeed. Their track record is spotty, no doubt. But Kross is a unique talent that I think we all know WWE is going to protect him.

[Team Farrell]

There could also be something to the idea that Scarlett wasn't there with him. She wasn't a top level in-ring worker last time I saw her wrestle, so I can't imagine that they're hoping to make her a breakout single. But keep in mind that NXT draws 1/3-1/2 of Raw's viewership. Maybe the key to Kross will be bringing in Scarlett. They might believe that enough people haven't seen the pairing that it can be an angle.

We all know, but as I keep saying WWE is not programming for any of us.

[CoLD]

I always thought Scarlett was the star between her and Kross and that her WWE lifespan would be longer. I just dont find Kross appealing. To me he needs her more then she will ever need him and that is a problem he needs to fix. Watching NXT you wouldnt be aware of how talented she is tho. It seems they only signed her to get him as all she has done is lip sync his song. Sometimes their choices really are weird.

I dont think a loss will kill Kross or Lee. Its just more of those weird choices. Yes you can book it but does that mean you should? To me these were two cases of no. Thats not the right choice. Plus in 2021 i find it insane that some how Goldberg would be a bigger challenge to Lashley based on past matches from Goldberg / Lee. Goldbergs WWE wins always seems fluky to me. Like he wins by someone else fucking up or doubting him more so then hat he can do.

I just wish they are building up for Lashley vs. Brock because it needs to happen.

[Oliver]

I think the Kross loss would be more palatable to me if Kross hadn't come up as NXT champion. You can argue about where the story is going/might go from here on and a lot of the above ideas make sense and pay off this (essentially) fluke win for Hardy. But if Kross had come up as 'just' an NXT call up without the title around his waist it then doesn't visibly show that the top person on NXT can lose to someone who is, effectively, a career midcarder who has dabbled in the main event over a decade ago.

I don't overall mind it and am happy to sit back and see what happens over the next couple of months with Kross. I even get the idea of them suggesting that the experience of Hardy made the difference over someone who is, effectively, a rookie. That's smart. But yeah, I think I could rationalise the idea of Monday night a lot more if Kross wasn't wearing something that showed he was the top guy on NXT.

[Team Farrell]

I always thought Scarlett was the star between her and Kross and that her WWE lifespan would be longer. I just dont find Kross appealing. To me he needs her more then she will ever need him and that is a problem he needs to fix. Watching NXT you wouldnt be aware of how talented she is tho. It seems they only signed her to get him as all she has done is lip sync his song. Sometimes their choices really are weird.

I dont think a loss will kill Kross or Lee. Its just more of those weird choices. Yes you can book it but does that mean you should? To me these were two cases of no. Thats not the right choice. Plus in 2021 i find it insane that some how Goldberg would be a bigger challenge to Lashley based on past matches from Goldberg / Lee. Goldbergs WWE wins always seems fluky to me. Like he wins by someone else fucking up or doubting him more so then hat he can do.

I just wish they are building up for Lashley vs. Brock because it needs to happen.

I agree with the majority of this. I don't see any way that they don't see a bigger star in Scarlett than Kross. Will that come to fruition? Who knows. 20 years ago she'd be Sable and 100000% yes. Today where they've toned back the sex sells stuff? She might not reach the level she would have. Now, Scarlett as the siren leading a whole faction of bad asses would be great. It's too bad they've already killed off Dijak and that Mace guy.

I see what you're saying about Lee, but I just don't think that they see him as a big enough star to be anywhere near the Goldberg level. Like I said, I see where his promos and demeanor could lead to a disconnect that Vince wouldn't want to get behind.

Would they be smart enough to keep the belt on Lashley all the way to Mania and do Lashley vs Brock? They shit the bed last year and took it off of Drew in the fall for no discernable reason. As long as they don't get in their own way that could be the top match on Mania, built like an MMA program, and actually sell some Cocks.

[CoLD]

I can 100% get Vince not "getting" a guy like Keith. My issue with that is as the Boss shouldn't he convey that to his talent? Like how are talent gonna give Vince what he wants unless he tells them? I'm sure his weight and body shape are a part of it but it has to be more then that. He can clearly go in the ring. Is the cartoonish way he cuts promos a problem? Tell the guy. For a guy who just vanished for close to a year he could have worked on any issue Vince had with him. The way they run shit is just weird to me. I'm not as invested in Keith as a lot of others are but clearly when he goes out there the fans love him. Work with him to get him to where you want him and he can be as imposing as they think Goldberg is.

I dont see anyone realistically beating Lashley in the next few months. Kofi could have been a nice choice to give him another short run. Only other option is Big E cashing in and calling his day ahead of time right now. Other then that I dont see anyone beating Bobby anytime soon.

[PEN15v2]

Who says Vince doesn't? I think it's more likely he's trying to find a way to use Lee's promo style and mold it into something more "mainstream" (for lack of a better word). Not flat out change his promos, but a compromise between the 2.

I agree with Cold that no one will unseat Goldberg, unless it's the cash in.

[Team Farrell]

I really think that the only thing Lee is missing is a mean streak. He looks like The Hulk, but talks like Bruce Banner. And Hulk didn't start doing that until he was already over.

He doesn't need to be doing 80s coked out promos, nor screaming about how he's going to end a guy's life. But a little bass in his voice and a little less of a blank expression that I think it meant to be cocky and like the other guy doesn't phase him at all, and he's there. They made the wrong alterations when they brought him up.

I'd like to see him adjust his style a little, but I didn't see the match on Monday so I can't comment on that.

[PEN15v2]

If I was booking, he'd turn heel on Monday. Join MVP and Bobby somehow. That would give him the mean streak. It would also be the safest way to book the loss on his surprise return.

[Team Farrell]

That would be a good way to go. I'd be interested in seeing Lee as a heel either way, whether it's Lee joining Hurt Business or Lee losing another match unexpectedly and turning pretty hard immediately afterward. I guess they could stretch it out to Summerslam and have him in Goldberg's corner as a counter to MVP, and when Lashley wins Lee gets in the ring with Goldberg, shakes his hand, raises his arm, murders him and leaves with Lashley and MVP.

If Lee were to run with them for a year, that's your main event for Summerslam 2022. By then, people will have hopefully forgotten.

[Buzzard Guts]

Anyone else considering watching SummerSlam in a movie theater? They're three times as much as a regular movie at my local theater but we're probably gonna go just for the experience.