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  • Oliver
    replied
    I just watched - because I'd never seen it and it's highly rated on Cagematch - the Ironman match between Grace and Purazzo for Impact, and I've got to say that I saw nothing in Grace during that other than very basic chain wrestling stuff.

    There's potential there but I think she needs to capture it a bit. Even her strength, put over by commentary as her biggest asset, was hardly notable during the match.

    Anybody got a recommendation of a single must see match for her that isn't a more recent PPV one one? I've been keeping up with Impact PPVs recently which is where my original conclusion came from. She reminds me of Michael Elgin (as do my feelings towards her, for that matter) - she looks OK, she wrestles fairly competently and well, but there's not a real substance to what she's doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Powder
    replied
    Originally posted by Oliver View Post
    To be honest, I've not seen enough that Grace has done to be sure she is 'must have' for WWE, or for that matter anywhere else.

    At the moment, I get that she's strong. But I think WWE has Ivy Nile in NXT that does that and in ring backs it up enough to suggest she could be as good as, if not better than, what I've seen of Grace.
    She is not Ivy Nile. Grace is much, much, bigger and stronger, and polished. And, while short, she is a powerhouse, that she could easily match, if not surpass, Bianca's strength.

    Leave a comment:


  • Team Farrell
    replied
    She's a headcase. I'm not sure she'd last there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oliver
    replied
    To be honest, I've not seen enough that Grace has done to be sure she is 'must have' for WWE, or for that matter anywhere else.

    At the moment, I get that she's strong. But I think WWE has Ivy Nile in NXT that does that and in ring backs it up enough to suggest she could be as good as, if not better than, what I've seen of Grace.

    Leave a comment:


  • PEN15v2
    replied
    While I agree they should sign Grace, the one division WWE does not really need help in is the women's division. The top talent pool is only shallow because of who is missing from the picture, but the roster is very deep.

    Asked no matter her skill level, she's unknown to WWE audiences. It's a single audience to compare to do it might not be fair, but think about how dead Houston was for Raw when Iyo Sky wrestled Bianca. Iyo has been in NXT for several years, but still didn't get much of a reaction. That's something HHH/WWE will need to be mindful of. Grace, Iyo, Kai, and now Kross will likely need to have their characters explained to the audience better than they might expect.

    So someone who's only been on Impact won't be a main eventer within months as you're suggesting. It's possible, but it would take effort from WWE, and if that's the case, they can do that with anyone that want to push.

    And that's when we get back to the deep roster. While I doubt Shotzi and Aliyah will really make a splash on Smackdown in terms of the women's title, Raquel and Zia Li are both top candidates to challenge at some point. On Raw, Iyo can definitely fit that bill, and Dakota likely can as well. With the NXT pool, Toxic Attraction is likely ready for the main roster any time they want to pull the trigger, and the green women who have incredible star potential once they have experience include Nikkita Lyons, Tiffany Stratton, Cora Jade, Roxanne Perez, Katana/Kayden, Ivy Nile, Elektra Lopez, Alba Fire, Indi Hartwell... Not everyone can be a star, but the potential is massive with who they already have, and people that HHH is likely familiar with and already attached to.

    PLUS, the way AEW has booked the women so far, it's hard not to imagine some of their stars won't test the WWE waters once they are available.

    Grace could be great. But she's definitely not needed.

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  • Powder
    replied
    EDIT: I tried to edit, and it flaggfed my post, so if this posts a few times...sorry.

    Changing topics a bit:

    So I just looked up to when Jordynne Grace's contract expires, and it is not that far away. May 2023.

    The WWE is currently is a much different place than it was in May 2021, when her previous contract expired and she chose to re-sign with Impact. With HHH in charge, and bringing back Bayley, Io, and Dakota Kai. Raquel and Rhea getting some serious pushes. Becky on the shelf, but will be back by May. Rousey with her name recognition and Charlotte's return still looming, and Bianca at the top of the division. And *gasp* Liv Morgan, I guess, a main eventer now. The Women's division is only getting stronger, and clear bigger push.

    I would think/hope that Sasha and/or Naomi can and will re-debut either at the Rumble, or by that time (the road the WM).

    That the WWE cannot afford to not throw the bank at Grace. She is a top level talent. Will be 26 years old with years of experience. She is already a multi time, multiple champion, and holds some powerlifting records (which the WWE would absolutely play up). I do not think that the WWE can let her slip through their fingers again. She can debut at the end of May or beginning of June and be built to a SummerSlam main event.

    If and when she does come over, that opens even more doors for the Women's division. Other female talent from Impact and/or AEW would be inclined to move over. HHH will push the women, and I believe he will build the division into serious credibility, but I still think that the WWE needs a few more top stars. Jordynne Grace is that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Powder
    replied
    Changing topics a bit:

    So I just looked up to when Jordynne Grace's contract expires, and it is not that far away. May 2023.

    The WWE is currently is a much different place than it was in May 2021, when her previous contract expired and she chose to re-sign with Impact. With HHH in charge, and bringing back Bayley, Io, and Dakota Kai. Raquel and Rhea getting some serious pushes. Becky on the shelf, but will be back by May. Rousey with her name recognition and Charlotte's return still looming, and Bianca at the top of the division. And *gasp* Liv Morgan, I guess, a main eventer now. The Women's division is only getting stronger, and clear bigger push.

    I would think/hope that Sasha and/or Naomi can and will re-debut either at the Rumble, or by that time (the road the WM).

    That the WWE cannot afford to not throw the bank at Grace. She is a top level talent. Will be 26 years old with years of experience. She is already a multi time, multiple champion, and holds some powerlifting records (which the WWE would absolutely play up). I do not think that the WWE can let her slip through their fingers again. She can debut at the end of May or beginning of June and be built to a SummerSlam main event.

    If and when she does come over, that opens even more doors for the Women's division. Other female talent from Impact and/or AEW would be inclined to move over. HHH will push the women, and I believe he will build the division into serious credibility, but I still think that the WWE needs a few more top stars. Jordynne Grace is that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Team Farrell
    replied
    You two are probably on to something. I know that I have a lot of people that walk in for training ask the first day when they're going to learn a flying elbow or a springboard. And I let them fuck around with stuff on their own time at the end of a class when I'm done teaching, but a lot leave when they're three weeks in and I'm still critiquing their lock-up or making fart sounds every time they throw a punch.

    My wrestling draws because we include the modern athleticism that you see on AEW, but it is serious and expected to look as real as possible. Keep in mind, I love spectacle and there is always a place for spotfest matches. I've been to Mexico and book luchas to do lucha. But the majority of my card is realism with modern athleticism.

    So even experienced guys that come in, I will critique their basics because when my fans can see through it, they fart on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oliver
    replied
    I think there's a certain - I don't want to say amateurish, exactly, but I'll run with it - amateurish quality to not just Paul but also a lot of current wrestlers who came up through the late 00s, in terms of those basics being embedded in them. It's like they crash coursed the first few weeks of wrestling training, then figured they were done with that and moved on to working out how to get as much flash as possible into their game rather than work on perfecting the basics.

    I might be alone in this, but in truth I'd rather watch a match that was ten minutes of well thrown punches and fairly basic holds, with maybe a little bit of brawling shenanigans so it's not just in ring and the basics, than I would watch a 20 minute match that started out with some simple chain wrestling but ended with 5 minutes of near falls and kickouts from all sorts of flashy moves. That doesn't mean that type of thing won't work for me, necessarily, it's all about how they do it, but there's a lot to be said for Regal and Austin having a Strap Match with nothing but punches and brawling around the ring and arena being a far better match than anything Gargano and Cole put together, for example.

    And maybe it's because wrestling had moved on, maybe it's because neither Cole nor Gargano had to spend their formative years getting stretched on Blackpool Pier or in the ring with Barry Windham and Steve Williams for 30 minutes, or maybe it's because they just don't think they need to learn the basics because what nowadays hooks 90% of the crowd in is three Canadian Destroyers in five minutes which all get a two count.

    There are matches which tend towards that style that really work because they tell the story that leads up to them - Zayn/Cesaro 2 out of 3 falls is probably still one of the best matches, for me, that WWE did over the last decade, because in 15 minutes it hit every single story beat that was laid out for it to hit. But more and more I think I want to see some actual wrestling, where it feels like a struggle and a fight, than I do something that's all fur coat and no knickers.

    Leave a comment:


  • PEN15v2
    replied
    Well, then the problem is the type of fans you're talking about. They claim they are smart enough to know wrestling and aren't "marks", but dumb enough to not understand how the presentation of Logan Paul made him look a million times better than he actually is. It's the same way Ronda/Kurt angle vs Steph/HHH was the match of the night at that WrestleMania. WWE puts on spectacles with matches at the center of it, while the typical IWC fan only sees what's in the ring. For all the distain for Kevin Dunn and WWE production, these same so called smart fans don't realize how much credit that team deserves for hiding what Ronda or Logan couldn't do.

    (some) Smart fans are fucking dumb

    Leave a comment:


  • Team Farrell
    replied
    He's good for his time in the business, and is an athlete. He's taking it completely seriously, respects professional wrestling and putting himself into it, even if it's not going to be his full time job. None of that is debatable, and he deserves a lot of credit for all of it.

    He reminds me of local high level amateur or pro athletes that I've worked with in the past. Depending on how much they're willing to put into it, you can get different things out of them. I worked with a pro boxer who was, like Paul, an incredible natural athlete. He's never gotten smooth or really "gotten it", but he loves and respects pro wrestling. He and I have had a couple of matches in his hometown, and they always draw well. He's at a point where I might not put him in there with a trainee in front of people, but I'd trust him with someone else that I believed could pull him through.

    I don't mean to sound like I'm unimpressed by Paul. I really am impressed. But when I see people say that he looks like he's been wrestling for years, it makes me roll my eyes. It's more of a statement on the fact that many fans these days are so easily blinded by being able to pull off cool moves that they don't see when someone can't do the basics with any proficiency. Shit, I see that from lauded people on AEW.

    Leave a comment:


  • PEN15v2
    replied
    I think it's comparison to other first time celebs, more than comparing to other wrestlers. Or, compare him to Dominic Mysterio, or NXT greenhorns. It's the same way people are calling for Bron Breakker to be moved to main roster and challenge Roman Reigns despite Bron not having 100 matches yet. Logan, Bron and Dom are all good for their experience level, but aren't about to put out a great match without someone likle The Miz leading the way. So it's impressive to see how smooth he is, because we've seen people like Jackie Gayda look like complete fools early in their experience.

    So Logan deserves some credit, as does The Miz for carrying him, and WWE for doing their part for patching up the holes.

    But in terms of being a star, Logan is there. It's the years on social media and whatever other stuff he does like boxing (though I thought that was Jake Paul), Logan is so comfortable in this role. Workrate fans don't realize how much the character work makes someone look "bigger". For the fans who think wrestlers should know 1004 holds and kick out of every finisher on the planet, they get blinded by how good Logan P\aul is at delivering a splash through a table. There's no doubt that was one of the best top rope splashes through a table I've ever seen, and a big part of it was how Logan looked around to the crowd to build up the reaction. He nailed these touches in his second ever match. That's impressive.

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  • Team Farrell
    replied
    So, have we gotten so far removed from well trained professional wrestlers with crisp and perfected fundamentals that Logan Paul is suddenly a "great" wrestler in peoples eyes because he can do many of the moves well?

    He's not bad. He's better as an athlete and from the standpoint of taking it seriously than most celebrities that come in. But I see people talking about how he's so good and it looks like he's been wrestling for years.

    He can do the moves in what was likely a choreographed setting. But he's saved by WWE's erratic editing style. His rope running, his follow throughs on strikes and clotheslines, all of the real basic, fundamental things that take it from looking like a fun staged performance to looking like maybe it's a real fight where people are actually getting beat up, are all bad.

    He throws a Warrior clothesline but it's somewhat hidden by Miz being able to bump his ass off, and the camera panning down. He hits the ropes with no speed for force at all, but a quick cut visually adds movement.

    Paul is athletic. He could be really good if he takes the time to get really good or wants to be a full time pro wrestler. But come on. Between being a celebrity, and the fact that so many guys can do fancy dives and big stunts, but have no fundamentals, people are acting like he's 90s Shawn Michaels.

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  • Oliver
    replied
    SummerSlam was a lot of fun.

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  • Powder
    replied
    If you haven't seen Dwight Howard's Sho'Nuff promo at the WWE tryout, go watch it. It was surprisingly good. BUUUT. All he was doing was imitating Sho'Nuff.

    If you don't know...go find the Lats Dragon from 1985. Ultra cheesy 80's martial arts movie, that was utterly awesome, and remembered only for Sho'Nuff and Bruce LeRoy.

    Leave a comment:

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