NXT

[PEN15v2]

I really don't see it that way. A star is someone WWE can depend upon to be front and center of a show. It doesn't mean they are massive successes, but they fit into that main event position, and metrics don't drop. That's a star.

A draw is someone who moves the needle. They prove to be a draw, which indicates they succeed more than the WWE brand.

I think a big reason we have this disconnect is WWE's branding has changed. They don't really seem to aim for breakout stars or draws, as much as creating a drawing brand. So anyone in the main event fits the role of being a "star" while not being a draw.

That is why I feel NXT has created stars. They got talent ready for that role of headlining in some way. Roman, Seth, Becky, Charlotte, Bray... they are NXT successful stars. I would argue the only draws from NXT would be arguably Becky, Roman, and maybe Bray.


Anyways, Lumis is a star (using my definition) in the making. The mustache is a valuable look for him right now and shouldn't be removed, unless he does become a draw (in my definition) because he'll likely be better looking without it and sell more posters/tickets/merch...etc.

[Prime Time]

I mean, as I say before, it's fine if we disagree. It's not like you chose to throw out the horse blinders quip! I've got no issue with people having a different definition so long as they are civil about it. Although I should say that I don't think you have to be a massive success to be a star, you just have to have a demonstrable appeal that is yours, and not as just another cog. As you say, though, WWE have largely moved away from that - which honestly is what I'd suggest is is the underlying problem.

But using your definition, yeah, I don't see any reason he couldn't fit into the role you are talking about, despite his age and Powder's concern about that - and I'd probably say that especially if they want to have him work heel then the moustache should probably stay for the reasons already outlined. In truth, though, I imagine that quite a lot of people on that roster could fill into the role you outline with the right presentation with no harm done.

[Powder]

Look at it this way, and Pen already hinted at this.

RAW, NXT and SDL and all other wrestling programs are TV shows, that pretend to be real competition, and in any TV show, there is the main star or the group cast that are the main stars, and then there are always recurring characters that support the stars and also many times become series regulars. Also with any show of length, the casts changes as people leave and new people come in. And this is true regardless of if the show is hugely successful like a Breaking Bad, Friends, Seinfeld, West Wing, Walking Dead etc, or moderately successful, like Mom, 2 Broke Girls, last man Standing etc.

With that said, currently on the RAW TV show, Drew McIntyre, Bobby Lashley, Charlotte, and Asuka are the Main stars, Street Profits, Viking Raiders, Apollo, Garza etc are all part of the group cast. The lower tier jobber types are the supporting/recurring roles etc. Now Wrestling is different in that the main stars rotate more than literally every other show, but some top stars have more staying power and more acceptance or media coverage. i.e Breaking bad. Brian Cranston was THE main star, but Aaron Paul was the secondary star, but still vital to the show.

[Prime Time]

I mean none of that is remotely a rebuttal to anything already said, and I've also never implied wrestling couldn't have more than one star at a time (the WWF roster was packed with them in the 1980s for example, WCW almost had too many of them at one stage, and there were a few knocking around in most companies in pretty much every other era) but sure, whatever works for you.

[Powder]

Sure it is, you are claiming that the WWE currently does not have any stars by your definition, when they clearly do., and right now they have Drew, Charlotte, the New Day, Daniel Bryan, Orton and Styles.

If your definition of a star is someone like Cena, Rock, Austin, Hogan, HHH, HBK, The Undertaker, Macho, then there is a big chance that no wrestling promotion will ever create or have a star again as the audience and rating as clearly down, and less and less people take notice to wrestling.

Is Paul Rudd a star? yes of course. He is Ant Man and part of the MCU, but he is not the star that Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth or Robert Downy Jr. are. Same parallel in wrestling.

[Prime Time]

Except that by the definition I've stated all the evidence says those guys aren't stars, which you haven't dealt with, and your argument isn't a rebuttal for, it's a shift onto other ground. The more you insist that it is the more it convinces me you either haven't read what I actually said, or haven't understood it.

This is getting tedious, again. At least with Pen even if we disagree you can still have a sensible conversation. So with that I suggest that we all move on. The Dexter Lumis thing was a perfectly suitable transition, so let's draw a line here.

[PEN15v2]

Prime, you said something (I believe in this thread, but I am too lazy to confirm) about not believing Velveteen Dream would become a star (or something along those lines). Is there any reason you believe this?

[Prime Time]

Mainly out of extrapolation to be honest. I think he's got all the upside in the world. But if you think of star the way I've been using it, and the various numbers all point in the one direction... I suppose two things ultimately make me say it. One is it might not be possible to make a genuine star in wrestling any more, given the overall state of the industry and how long it has now been since the last.

The other is that given the difficulties they've had getting anyone into that position, despite the obvious talent of some of the people involved... Even if it is still possible, the odds of it being any one specific person are still tiny.

So it's nothing against Dream personally, just thinking about the odds involved. Of course if you just mean by star that he could be heavily featured, I don't see any reason why he couldn't do that (with the gimmick he's been using or not, as WWE chooses), so that might have prompted some misunderstanding in the past.

[Funker]

Changing tack any Cameron Grimes fans here?

[PEN15v2]

I'm enjoying his work. As a credible midcard chickenshit heel, he's solid.

[Team Farrell]

I like it on some level, but I didn't like what he was given. It made him look like a total brone. I think he's a bit of an awkward promo, too.

I find myself watching shows and thinking "if I was put into that place, what would I ask to change it to?" a lot. Since they didn't do anything with he and Priest on Wednesday, if I were Grimes, I would have asked for it to change to this:

• Grimes cuts a similar promo on Priest, Priest gets in his face, Grimes puffs up his chest and when it's about to come to blows, officials get in between them.
• They come back to Drake Younger on the line with Regal, and Drake tells him that Grimes is refusing to wrestle tonight because Regal not being here has created an "unsafe working environment", Regal wants to talk to Grimes.
• They come back to Grimes flirting with the girls telling them that he's going to be undefeated against Balor forever because he's not wrestling Balor tonight. Drake and Regal interrupt, Grimes tells Regal that without him here, everybody is just walking around doing whatever they want, Priest almost attacked him earlier for no reason, and he's refusing to wrestle tonight because NXT is not safe, even Regal must feel that way since he's not even man enough to be there.
• Regal tells Grimes that he is welcome to have the night off. But if he takes tonight off,he might as well take tomorrow off, and the next day, and the next day. In fact, he might as well back his things and head back to North Carolina, because he'll be suspended indefinitely without pay.
• Grimes is pissed off, and tells Regal he'll wrestle Balor tonight, but Regal had better remember that he can't stay away forever and eventually he'll have to come back and face Grimes in person.

The reason I'd have made those changes is that I feel it still gets the chickenshit heel character over by having him try to duck Balor for no reason and having him bow up to the retired GM that isn't there in person, without having the guy they they were pushing as a one hit knockout a few months ago be forced to get punked out entirely by Priest off of a single forearm shot (please throw punches!!!!). It also puts the same heat on he and Regal, while showcasing that Regal actually has some authority -- rather than Grimes just doing what he's told -- and doesn't require the sitcom moment of Grimes being caught not selling a fake injury.

Grimes doesn't look like a brone that got punked out because he stood up to Priest, he just looks like a heel that doesn't want to fight Balor without the handicap coming in that he had last time. Regal has actual authority. Priest looks like a bad ass that wasn't just going to let Grimes talk shit, but it didn't come to blows because officials got in between them. It all takes an identical amount of time as what made TV.

[PEN15v2]

With all the taped shows, I am sure most expected Meltzer and the like to spoil shows.
Instead, an NXT wrestler spoiled next week's main event. What a idiot.

[comfortablynumb]

I loved that Thatcher match. Hard hitting. They’ve really handled him well so far in NXT.

[PEN15v2]

I could watch Timothy Thatcher VS Oney Lorcan wrestle every night for the rest of my life, and I'd be happy.

[comfortablynumb]

I concur. Maybe bring back the fight pit for the final match?

And maybe it’s just me, but the whole NXT roster has been built wonderfully these last couple of months. Thatcher is a legit threat to any title already, Bronson Reed is working his way up, the cruiserweight division has direction, Kross has been presented as a dangerous man and you have so many guys like Balor, Gargano, Ciampa, Priest, UE (and more I can’t think of) who can step into top slots if needed.