NXT

[Oliver]

I thought Baszler vs Yim was better than the online critics are saying. I think people watch Takeover and expect every match to have 100 false finishes with everyone kicking out of all the top moves, which is why it is becoming increasingly harder to watch Gargano matches and enjoy them. Though Adam Cole was awesome. Put one slow, methodical match on a Takeover card and watch all the people proclaim it the worst match ever.

I'm completely with you here, Kleck, but I also accept that I'm a Baszler fan and her matches always watch better for me than others. I thought they did a good job telling a story of a street fighter against a more trained one, and how those two are diametric opposites. I also thought Shayna sold exceptionally well.

That said, though, I'm not sure it's a slow, methodical match thing - Riddle vs Strong was just that and yet I think the consensus was that it completely ruled.

[Prime Time]

It depends on how you want to look at it. From what I've seen Ronda has demonstrated more aptitude for the basics so in that sense she's "better", and obviously has huge upsides in terms of recognition that Shayna will probably never have. Shayna has probably done better at the character stuff, and does a pretty good job of maximising the stuff she can do in the ring and leaning heavily into that, for the most part at least.

Personally, I think they both bring more than enough to make it worth having them around, but they've each got a downside, too.

[PEN15v2]

Though Adam Cole was awesome.

I still fail to see what's special about Cole, other than having a 2019 summarized version of the Roaddogg gimmick, getting people to say Boom and Baybay on cue. Other than that, there's just nothing about him better than 50% of the NXT roster.

[Kleckamania]

Granted, I'm not a fan, fan of Adam Cole, but I can appreciate his qualities. He's got the IT factor imo. It's why fans go insane. A natural, physical charisma, build and looks similar to HBK. Rarely makes mistakes in the ring. Is undeniably solid in promos and on the mic. He's not great, but he is good at a lot of things, and I wouldnt be at all surprised to see WWE shoot him to the moon on the main roster.

Last night, minus that finish (which I'm honestly not sure who to blame for. If that was scripted to bump like that I feel bad for both guys, but as Oliver pointed out Adam ate most of the impact- makes me think it could have been a Gargano botch) Cole wrestled a very solid match in terms of timing, positioning, execution aside from that bump. They definitely had a chemistry together, and it often seems like that is said in most of Adam Cole's feuds. Tends to point to him being good at what he does.


As for Shayna, yeah I'm a big fan too, but I definitely still watch even my favorites objectively. The only thing I can say she is still green at is her entrance to the ring, and at times her timing/positioning. She has come a very long way. She will never have the commercial appeal Ronda has, but man, her heel work during matches is just wonderful at times.


And am I really the only one who thought the Triple Threat was a rushed together let down? It wasnt terrible- Dream was fantastic, Roddie was tremendous as usual, but man it seemed like Pete was off. It almost felt like he knew he was losing, so he didnt put as much into it as he should have. Like Joe used to in TNA.

[PEN15v2]

I would agree that Cole is solid in the ring. But I also feel that way about most of the top NXT prospects. As for "It factor", I think that's a tough call. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not seeing it. And that is why I'm not arguing you on it, because I see star power/It factor in others that many online don't see (Roman Reigns, for example).

I also recognize that there is a style of modern wrestling I just can't get into, and so far, Cole falls in that category. This also describes recent Gargano matches, but I don't think he was this bad vs Andrade or Ciampa. Cole vs Gargano on the other hand as been tedious to get through. The style I'm talking about is the excessive kickouts to ridiculous finsher type moves that turn into a spot match. I'm more forgiving in tag wrestling, because you don't have to kick out of these moves when your partner can break the count. But as much as I despite the Canadian Destroyer/Panama Sunrise, Gargano kicking out of the one off the ladder was absurd.

I think my biggest issue with Cole is he doesn't comes off as a credible threat. I understand he's mostly a cheap heel with the stable, but unless he's fighting Gargano, he doesn't look or act imposing, or seem like someone who can outwrestle the other. I know Ric Flair was this kind of wrestler in the 80s, but he at least wrestled in a way that made it logical that he could beat someone twice his size. Cole doesn't.

Shayna I am a fan of, but she's such an anomoly in the ring that I understand why many don't appreciate her. She's such a different type of modern heel. She's almost like the female HHH, in that she's obviously talented enough to outwrestle the opponent, but cheats anyways, while being imposing at every turn. She's also not a cool heel. But she's not "exciting" in the ring. That's what people have a hard time getting around, much like Randy Orton (though nowhere near as polished as The Viper is). But they get labeled boring because they don't wrestle an exciting style. I love it, but it doesn't work for many. I think the issue for this Takeover is that Yim didn't really get a strong enough story to be a contender. Had it been any other NXT women's champ (other than Asuka), I think Yim's story would have been enough. But Shayna has been so dominant that the person who will take the title off her needs to be on such a crazy roll. And the only people that can describe are heels, like Io, or Bianca Belair. And they both lost to her recently. With Breezango back in NXT, maybe the person to challenge Shayna will be a main roster woman who returns to NXT. I wouldn't mind seeing Dana Brooke come back for a chance. Or, Asuka honestly would be amazing (though this is more likely to happen unhyped on a random SD when Shayna gets to the main roster).

But Candice might be the best option if they give her the right story to move forward.

As for the Triple Threat, I didn't get into it. I didn't notice Dunne being lazy, but it just wasn't my style of match. I generally don't like singles Triple Threat/4/5/6 way matches, though.

[Oliver]

Candice vs Shayna or Goth Io vs Shayna will both rule, I think. Happy for them to take those two in either direction - whilst heel vs heel doesn't seem likely, I think they could do it really well with those two.

I get where you're coming from on the 'Io just challenged and lost' front, Pen, but I think this is so clearly a different Io that it's not a huge step to accept her as a challenger with a chance.

Most likely, I'm guessing a triple threat between those three to keep a face interest.

Next Takeover is WarGames, right, in November? Hard to see they go in any direction other than Undisputed Era vs AN Other team, I guess, but I'd quite like the three Horsewomen vs Team Candice - trouble is I don't know who you can get in NXT that fits into the face side and can be considered strong enough as challengers.

[comfortablynumb]

I think Meltzer was the one that said NXT moving to the USA Network will be the death to NXT as we know it but I'm still cautiously optimistic. The best part of the news is that it will still be taking place at Full Sail, so there can only be so much Vince intervention if he does intend to intervene. If it's main roster guys like Brezango coming down for a refresher I'm all for it; just don't make a third show for Roman and other top stars to appear on weekly.

[Oliver]

I mean, yeah - my biggest fear is they move it then handle it like a Superstars/Main Event type programming where they just chuck some random matches each week.

If they can keep it like NXT is currently, use the extra hour to just build a further couple of stories for undercard guys, and make it interesting while keeping their longer-term stories going, it'll be OK.

My big question - what happens to Takeovers from here? Do they stick with the five match schedule that's recently been successful, or do they feel the need to expand that to accommodate a pay off for the additional storylines they (hopefully) build up? Personally I'd like to see them pay one or two of the undercard stories off on the TV shows rather than have them climax at Takeover.

[Cult Icon]

I think Meltzer was the one that said NXT moving to the USA Network will be the death to NXT as we know it but I'm still cautiously optimistic. The best part of the news is that it will still be taking place at Full Sail, so there can only be so much Vince intervention if he does intend to intervene. If it's main roster guys like Brezango coming down for a refresher I'm all for it; just don't make a third show for Roman and other top stars to appear on weekly.

It's these sort of misunderstandings that lead to Meltzer getting so much shit. I've heard every show he's don in the past week and he has never said NXT moving to USA would be the death of them. What he has said is that Vince McMahon won't be hands off with the product, especially if they don't draw a huge rating right away, and that part is just common sense. Not only will the show be expanding an hour but look who they're going up against. Triple H and co. can try to deny it all the want but this move was done to counter program AEW. Otherwise they would've had NXT on network TV earlier (which they could've done given the demand USA and Fox both had for WWE content), they would've put the show on another night or they just would've kept NXT as is. They did this to go head to head with AEW and there's no doubt in my mind that Vince will become involved. And by the way, there's not a damn thing wrong with that. Wrestling promotions have done this to each other for years and years, and generally it just makes things more fun for us (provided the shows are good). Let's just call it as it is.

Obviously I do hope Vince and USA (let's not forget them) doesn't become too involved of course. NXT, even at it's worst (has it ever actually been bad?) is still the one place that provides WWE fans with a product most are happy with. I have my misgivings about Triple H running the ship but I at least know he and his lieutenants can produce something good with NXT, and even with the extra hour of TV I think they're capable of keeping the same level of quality. The question is how long will they be given full control and that's where the Vince and USA equation come in. Those are big deals; NXT has been able to operate as well as it has because the oversight is limited. That won't be the case now with Vince wanting to beat AEW and USA obviously wanting the show to draw well. It's imperative that NXT gets off to a hot start both creatively and ratings wise. If they do I think this could be a smooth transition. If they struggle and AEW beats them a few times in the ratings (which I do think will happen the first week) then it may be time to start worrying.

[PEN15v2]

" this move was done to counter program AEW. "

In a court of law, the burden of proof would be on you. Especially when this is NXTs existing time slot on the WWE Network. I'm not saying you're wrong, as I agree that this is the case, but there's no proof to state it as fact.

Besides that, it's a moot point. I believe the only reason to even bring it up is to push buttons. The whole counter programming discussion was immature to begin with, and started when AEW booked their launch on a Tuesday just down the road from Smackdown. Using your words, there's nothing wrong with that, but let's call it what it is. AEW got their timeslot against NXTs existing slot after rumors they were hoping to get Tuesdays, feeding off Smackdown viewers who didn't move with Fox to Fridays with the blue brand.

Much like Cody with his immature rants about counter programming, this was started by AEW. They poked the bear.

[LK3185]

It was bound to happen regardless if AEW or WWE had taken shots. Not about poking the bear, just common sense. Especially when you look at the whole picture and see that USA network relies on WWE so much that they probably weren’t pleased losing WWE programming to Fox and then seeing another cable network give time for a new promotion with money behind them

Not o mention all the claims from WWE that NXT is a third brand. AEW’s existence only sped up the process imo

If WWE really wanted to go after AEW, they would try to run NXT touring every week in the same cities lol

[Kleckamania]

Oli, I think it is inevitable that the Takeovers will have more matches- that is the least of my concerns. My biggest one is that they will now feel compelled to do them monthly. Let the oversaturation begin...


I think they will be okay for a while, but doubling your programming per week will eventually put a strain on creative- especially when stars start cycling out, and new faces come into the mix.

[Pringle]

Much like Cody with his immature rants about counter programming, this was started by AEW. They poked the bear.

Shhh... this doesn't fit their rhetoric.

I hope AEW does well, but shoehorning themselves into the position of plucky underdog in a scuffle they started is off-putting.

[PEN15v2]

Any fan who doesn't want all wrestling to do well... shouldn't really call themselves a wrestling fan. I understand brand allegiance. I obviously find my wrestling home to be WWE. But the better any brand does, the better the entire business can do. I've said somewhere that what Vince is amazing at, yet rarely gets credit for, is watching how others succeed and melding those ideas into WWE. It can be considered stealing ideas. But Attitude Era wasn't just a copy of ECW. It just took some of what made ECW special, and evolved WWF with those factors. So far, AEW hasn't shown me anything new, but if they do end up pushing the tag division the way they seem to be planning, or if the win/loss record ends up being as huge a factor as has been discussed, then Vince will likely put more energy into the tag division, and have wins and losses matter more.

And on that note, I think NXT is where these changes will show the most. It's not that I believe Vince will be hands off, but the gut feeling I have from how HHH has built NXT, that Vince won't just turn it into the 3rd WWE brand. There will be pressure from USA and Vince, no doubt. But it's still going to be very different than Raw or SD. NXT has been a great place for new ideas and technology to be explored. For example, on the main roster we're now used to see the ring apron screens and the corner post screens. Those started in NXT. That's an obvious and visual factor, but there have been other more subtle ones as well. And that's why I think NXT will likely still have a developmental feel to it, but not just in developing talent (which, let's be honest, the TV product hasn't really been about development the way OVW or FCW used to be).

I think NXT will still take more risks than the main roster shows (though cut down on stupid risks like giving Rod Strong a live mic). Originality shown by AEW will be shown in NXT afterwards. Both shows aim for the same audience, and have (in my opinion) an equal talent roster. AEW leads the way in name branding, especially being on TNT, and international talents shared among other promotions. NXT has a better core of homemade stars, but that's an unfair comparison as AEW needs to get out of the blocks first, and that's why they should be sharing talent the way they do). I think the goal will be for NXT to not just knock away some of AEW's ratings, but also become competition for new signees. A year from now, a team like LAX who is leaving Impact would have a very tough decision to make. Right now, AEW is the way better option for them, hands down.

[Team Farrell]

NXT has been a great place for new ideas and technology to be explored. For example, on the main roster we're now used to see the ring apron screens and the corner post screens. Those started in NXT. That's an obvious and visual factor, but there have been other more subtle ones as well. And that's why I think NXT will likely still have a developmental feel to it, but not just in developing talent (which, let's be honest, the TV product hasn't really been about development the way OVW or FCW used to be).

This really can't be overstated. NXT has been the training ground not just for in-ring talent, but production and writing staff. Their relationship with Full Sail has allowed them to help train production staff, help students learn from experts in production from WWE, but has probably allowed WWE to get ideas from these new, young minds that aren't jaded by years of industry experience and "the way it's done".

I think AEW has a lot of that as well. A lot of people with no experience doing this, surrounded by guys like Keith Mitchell with decades of experience. Keith has this handled, but you have people like Cody or Kenny to toss out new ideas that his experience might actually blind him to.

I hope that NXT is still allowed to experiment. Try new camera angles, try new production things, if it's shit you don't try it again and you move on. But a lot of cool stuff has come out of NXT, so I'd like to see that continue.