NXT

[Oliver]

And it wasn't just little things, it was major issues. Breeze forgot (I assume) that he had to be down for the Elbow spot and threw a dropkick at nothing in the centre of the ring before Dream jumped.

See, I didn't mind that because Dream had done the same thing a bit earlier in the match - I thought it was Breeze trying to preempt the move and throw a dropkick with Dream then stopping to second guess that happening. But I get it looked weird, because it did.

Eh, it wasn't for you Coach, and that's cool. I liked it, but I get where you're coming from - it was a great TV match that they put on a PPV and stretched (slightly) for time. Unfortunately total run times of NXT events have started to edge towards 2.5 hours, when they only need to run to 2.

[comfortablynumb]

If this crosses the line, oh well but at tonight’s taping Regal announced an eight-man NXT Breakout Tournament featuring only people who have yet to be on TV. Winners gets a title shot of his choosing. I think it’s a great idea.

[T.O.]

A similar idea gave us the initial Sheamus push so why not?

[PEN15v2]

That Takeover show just wasn't great. I haven't really enjoyed a Takeover card in a long time, and I'm a WWE fan.

Could it be that the Takeover match formula (not the 5 20 minutes matches you also talked about) is wearing thin? It's something I'm sensing/predicting with the AEW/Young Bucks style. I think Gargano makes an amazing face to cheer on, and is truly an outstanding performer in the ring. But every match he's had starts to bleed into the other. So while this recent match could have been the best one, it felt like I had seen it before, so it didn't feel like the best. Plus, the finisher spamming which was an issue with DoN was in full effect here too, and has been too often with Takeovers. I find by the main event, I'm drained more often than not (though Gargano vs Ciampa and Gargano vs Almas were phenomenal) and don't feel the matches are as good as other reviewers have stated.

But Riddle vs Strong was the match of the month for me.

[Oliver]

I'm getting a bit tired of watching Gargano matches, to be honest. There was a point in time where I think I was warming to him because I felt like the 'indy' in him had been ironed out into something much more focused and he was becoming a wrestler that blended the indy stuff he did and the WWE style perfectly. But his last handful of matches, especially the Cole ones, have flipped me back to my earlier feelings on him and I now think he's doing too much in his matches and not letting them breathe properly.

I miss Ciampa.

[Prime Time]

I think that's fair. I really like some aspects of his mat wrestling but most of the time, after winning me over early in the match, he loses me down the stretch for that very reason.

[PEN15v2]

Are we just getting old, and not accepting that wrestling is evolving? That's what I've been accused of when I balk at these sorts of matches. I am not saying they are wrong, but I do feel that if this is where mainstream wrestling is going, older fans will continue to tune out.

[Prime Time]

I don't think so, personally, but I've been accused of the same thing, so perhaps I'm not best placed to comment.

I agree that older fans will tune out regardless of the answer, though. Whether it's 'evolving' or not, degenerating or not, it's not like I'm suddenly going to have a lightbulb moment after all this time and suddenly this stuff will work for me.

[Oliver]

I'm not sure it's completely the growing older side of the argument - wrestling's certainly evolved a lot over history, and maybe there are some people in the 60s and 70s who were saying that Big Daddy was killing the business and was no George Hackenschmidt or something. But I think there's a point where the in ring stuff stops telling a story and just becomes moves for the sake of it, which is where I suppose I'm getting at with Gargano. It's why his match with Andrade worked so well, while his one with Cole have left me a bit colder - the former very much had a story behind it all, whereas the latter just lacked on that front.

[Team Farrell]

Could it be that the Takeover match formula (not the 5 20 minutes matches you also talked about) is wearing thin? It's something I'm sensing/predicting with the AEW/Young Bucks style. I think Gargano makes an amazing face to cheer on, and is truly an outstanding performer in the ring. But every match he's had starts to bleed into the other. So while this recent match could have been the best one, it felt like I had seen it before, so it didn't feel like the best. Plus, the finisher spamming which was an issue with DoN was in full effect here too, and has been too often with Takeovers. I find by the main event, I'm drained more often than not (though Gargano vs Ciampa and Gargano vs Almas were phenomenal) and don't feel the matches are as good as other reviewers have stated.

But Riddle vs Strong was the match of the month for me.

I find that every match is attempting to be a main event level match, and by the time I'm three in I don't care anymore. I'm bored. It's the formula that the indy shows that are my least favourite take.

There was a Takeover show a year or so ago where three of the five matches had major apron bumps (I think someone even gave someone else his finish on the apron in like the second match). So by the time we got to the main and one of the guys takes this big apron bump that's supposed to be the turning point and the announcers are losing their minds, it means nothing because I've seen at least two others and one of them was bigger.

That ladder match at the last Takeover was crazy. As good as people felt Cole vs Gargano was (and I really didn't like it), at come point after I've seen a sunset flip powerbomb off a ladder through another ladder in the second match, you're not going "up" from there. Which is why you wind up with a Destroyer on the floor not being a finish in the main.

Maybe it's a problem with the structure of a Takeover card, maybe the guys are being given too much freedom to put their own stuff together, maybe Triple H has fallen into the NJPW habit of seeking those star ratings above a well structured show. I'm not sure.

[PEN15v2]

I find that every match is attempting to be a main event level match, and by the time I'm three in I don't care anymore. I'm bored.

BOOM. Nailed it. Maybe that's why it's the opening matches that I prefer more often than not, as they are all trying to be a main event style match, so the first one has a more direct impact on me. Well said.

I also think that's why I liked Ciampa vs Gargano more than Cole vs Gargano. Not only do I think Cole is overrated, but the DIY split up story, with the injuries, and the heel turn for Ciampa... it made the overall story more interesting, so I was more invested in the match. Cole vs Gargano I had no story, and Cole vs Gargano II had the story of Johnny won match 1... So it wasn't as deep to sink into.

[mizfan]

That touches on something I was just thinking regarding NXT... do people still think the booking/creative is good in NXT? I haven't watched the weekly show in ages so I'm not sure, but the only real story I can remember hearing about in a long time is Ciampa/Gargano, which admittedly seemed brilliant, especially early on. Wondering if there are other good stories that aren't getting mentioned or if it's become focused on just loading Takeover up with crowd popping matches.

[comfortablynumb]

Going off the recent tapings, which I will not spoil, it seems there's several feuds going on, although many are just as simple as 'I'm better than you.'

And I echo Oliver's thoughts, I miss Ciampa and Goldy together.

[LK3185]

I only watch Takeovers at this point but I follow the taping spoilers and like it just feels like a lot of good talent is being thrown together without any major story.. not seeing the stuff they do backstage hurts the perception tho.

I also feel like on the issue of Takeover, there’s not enough difference to a show. Can’t give me Riddle vs Strong and then expect me to feel like Cole and Gargano are raising the level so to speak. I watched Doubleor nothing and it’s different styles, Joshua, a dusty type match, then the main event. I’m sure they will have cool hardcore stuff as well.

A variety on a card structure is a good thing

Also, the NXT women need more then one match at Takeover

[Team Farrell]

I think that other than the fact that they had built in stories they could tell with Cole-Gargano and Shirai-Baszler, a lot of the last Takeover was a little thrown together. Weekly TV seemed to be building toward either Cole or Strong splitting from and feuding with Undisputed Era. Maybe they would have teamed with Riddle?

But with Ricochet, Black and War Raiders becoming exclusive to the main roster following Mania I think that it sort of threw everything up in the air. Suddenly Roddy's problems with UE are water under the bridge; Breeze is back in NXT and he and Dream have a Takeover-worthy issue after one interaction; and a new set of Tag Team Champions needed to be crowned.

This Takeover show also seemed to come out of nowhere. Usually if they were going to do a Takeover before Summerslam I'd have expected for it to be MITB weekend. But they randomly threw in this Takeover show.