Marvel Cinematic Universe - All Marvel Movie/TV discussion

[Gooner]

Space

Space

Space

Space

Space

Ok, I've had 24 hours to digest. Personally, I was mesmerised by the whole film, and the criticisms I'm about to bring up are merely a 5% of the grand scheme of things. But it's easier to talk about the 5% I didn't particularly like vs the 95% I did:

- I did not enjoy the way Antman became free of the Quantum Realm. I hate 'lucky' plot devices, such as the rat that just so happens to push the right button to free Scott. Just don't buy it. Also, how did the van even get there?

- I loved Thor's 'demise' and transformation... but I feel it should have been only for the beginning. Seeing a fat Thor all the way through the movie felt weird and unnecessary. Have him bulk up again somehow (maybe he stays in the past timeline a bit longer for example). Badass Thor is the best Thor. Interested to see where he ends up in charge of the Benatar (see what I did there?)

- Captain Marvel. Just seems a weird direction to release her film right before, and then have two small (but admittedly important) moments in Endgame. Surely they could have found another way to achieve those moments without her involvement at all?

- Too much Nebula. I'm not really a fan of her character, she's not the most charismatic, so I wasn't mad on her being instrumental to the plot.

Most of that aside, there were so many good things. I'll touch upon them later on.

[meandi]

Because now you have to click on the thread to see the spoiler. Before, you could just click on the 'what's new' and come across it in the news feed. Now, you have to actually seek out the spoiler and there's no chance to come across it by accident.

Ah, okay. Didn’t realize that was a thing. Makes sense, I suppose.

[LK3185]

Space

Space

Space

Space

Space


- I did not enjoy the way Antman became free of the Quantum Realm. I hate 'lucky' plot devices, such as the rat that just so happens to push the right button to free Scott. Just don't buy it. Also, how did the van even get there?

- I loved Thor's 'demise' and transformation... but I feel it should have been only for the beginning. Seeing a fat Thor all the way through the movie felt weird and unnecessary. Have him bulk up again somehow (maybe he stays in the past timeline a bit longer for example). Badass Thor is the best Thor. Interested to see where he ends up in charge of the Benatar (see what I did there?)

- Captain Marvel. Just seems a weird direction to release her film right before, and then have two small (but admittedly important) moments in Endgame. Surely they could have found another way to achieve those moments without her involvement at all?

Space

Space

Space

I just wanted to highlight these points to talk about them. I'm not a super MCU stan, gotten into it more as its gone along. so ive missed a few movies but these are plot discussions for the movie.


- The Antman thing is weird, but I don't know how you do that differently. I suppose if a some random person (say the Stan Lee cameo here) did it, still kinda wonky just the same as a rat doing it. Like I can't see an Antman rescue operation when no one knew he was in the Quantum Realm. You need him to kick off the Time travel plot too....

- Didn't mind Fat Thor (but see the point I've seen some make where it was played for laughs too much) because he's a God and he doesn't need to be jacked to still have his god like power. Its not like he's strong because he's jacked.


- Cap Marvel did feel a bit unnecessary but I feel it would be worse to have her have a bigger role in the movie. She's like someone said, the ace in the role, but not as big of reason why the Avengers defeated Thanos. That was my fear. I liked her role in the movie.

[Powder]

I just saw Endgame last night. It was NOT at all what I expected, I have no idea what I expected, but that was not it. I do have a few issues with it (in no particular order).

1. What was the entire point of Captain Marvel? The MCU made a huge point in ending Infinity War with the hint that she is coming. Then they released her origin movie indicating that she is ridiculously powerful, and she is in the movie for like a total of 15 minutes and does only one thing. In reality, she was not needed for the movie.

2. Where was the rest of the MCU? I know, they were killed off by Thanos and they showed up for the last battle in dramatic fashion, but why wait so long to have the undo snap? The MCU spent 21 movie setting up this finale, gave almost everyone at least 1 stand alone movie prior, and they were all over Infinity War, but they were practically not in Endgame. The undo snap should have been earlier to allow for more screen time of the rest of the MCU.

3. The 2014 Loki steals the Tesseract (space stone) and disappears and thus is no longer imprisoned in Asgard so how could any of the events that he is in from that point on happen?

4. This next issue I have is THE single biggest problem with the entire movie. In the story, they made a conscious point to state that the timeline has to remain exactly as it is. You cannot go and change anything otherwise you create an alternate time line and a different reality, i.e, you CANNOT go back and stop Thanos from collecting the stones and snapping his fingers eliminating half of all life. Banner and Nebula try to explain this to Lang, and The Ancient One makes a point to state this to Banner. Also, the very end of the movie is about Captain America going back to put the stones back exactly from when the Avengers took them from to not ruin the existing timeline.

So what is the problem? Well the movie directly contradicts itself with Tony snapping his fingers and killing off Thanos and all of his army/underlings. Again, what is the problem? Well the Thanos (and army) that the Avengers fight at the end of the movie is the Thanos from 9 years ago who has NOT yet collected the stones or performed the snap. He is the Thanos from 2014. So when Tony kills him he effectively altered his present timeline as now there is no Thanos from 2014-on as he was killed by Tony's snap. So who then collects the stones and does the initial snap? No one. Problem, paradox, and new timeline and reality.

This could have all been explained with one simple comment from Tony before he dies. He should have said something like: "I didn't kill him. I simply sent him and all of his army back to his own time with no memory of what happened here so that the events of our timeline remains as it did." With the time, mind, and reality stones, that is allowable.

Furthermore: Nebula kills her past self and does not immediately disappear. Umm....how? If she kills herself from the past, the present her is no longer alive to kill herself.

[meandi]

Because... time travel. I’d recommend not trying to wrap your head around the logistics of it too much. There’s always going to be some sort of paradox when time travel is involved. IE... Kyle Reese is sent back by John Connor to protect Sara Connor and ends up banging her and being John’s father and creates a new time loop that way, but who was John’s father in the original timeline? Don’t even get me started on Back to The Future... at the end of the first movie when Marty sees his life is way better than in the beginning because of George standing up to Biff and taking a different path, Marty should’ve eventually gone insane because every memory he ever had up to that point wouldn’t be shared by anybody else in his family because they grew up in a different timeline. Anyway, I digress. But the answer to your questions is... yeah, time travel.

[JacobWrestledGod]

The simple “yeah time travel” is the worst excuse to allow marvel to give self conflicted wounds to its own internal logic. I can’t except that regardless of how good the individual scenes are, the movie is only as good as the main plot allows.

Took a week to think about it, this movie is vastly overrated, with Inifinity War underrated for its near perfect execution.

[Powder]

But the answer to your questions is... yeah, time travel.

The simple “yeah time travel” is the worst excuse to allow marvel to give self conflicted wounds to its own internal logic. I can’t except that regardless of how good the individual scenes are, the movie is only as good as the main plot allows.

Took a week to think about it, this movie is vastly overrated, with Inifinity War underrated for its near perfect execution.

Jacob basically said what I would have. "Yeah Time travel" does not hold up, when in the movie itself, they reference many of the other movies that have time travel and what was wrong with their flawed logic. Endgame tried to be very scientific about their approach and from what I read this morning, while not 100% accurate, the way they explained time travel is close to how scientists think it should work. key word, think. But that does not take into account how they directly contradict themselves. Nebula kills herself and yet still exists. The Avengers deliberately state that they cannot change the past otherwise it creates new timetlines that they are not part of, and then they go and kill off the one guy that creates their current timeline, so everything that they know is instantly gone.

Deadpool continually says it best: "That's just lazy writing."

My suggestion for any/all comic book movies being mad in the future is to get a theater or two full of comic book nerd, movie buffs, and over-analyzing critics like us (but not necessarily us) and show these movies to them as test audiences to see what "is wrong" with them, and then get their opinions, and to "correct" the big major plot hole/mistakes prior to releasing the movie.

I know that as soon as the movie was over, I walked out of it saying that they created the paradox with killing 9 years ago Thanos, and you are telling me that no one in the entire production company saw that? No one thought to have Tony say something like I said before: "I didn't kill him. I simply sent him and all of his army back to his own time with no memory of what happened here so that the events of our timeline remains as it did."

Again, that is just lazy writing.

[comfortablynumb]

They don't give a shit what the nerds think though. This is for the masses, and it worked. $1.2 billion. That's what it's about.

There are a ton of things that don't make sense if you think too hard about them. The big one to me is that since they didn't stop the initial snap, the "dead" characters come back five years later. Then Peter is shown in high school with his other friends going to school like nothing happened. Was the world on hold during the five years after the snap?


And Bruce explained the time travel thing well enough. Anything that happens in the past does not effect the future, it creates an alternate timeline. Present Nebula killing past Nebula just means there's no more Nebula in that alternate timeline. Loki escaping with the tesseract means in that alternate timeline, Loki now has the Tesseract. I do wonder if they will use this alternate timeline as the basis for the Loki Disney+ show.

[LK3185]

As a big fan of time travel, I loved the movie even more because of that element.. even if it is messy. Time travel plots aren't easy to do.. and if you're doing alternate timeline stuff, it becomes so convoluted that it is better to not think about it too much.

Found this amusing though.

Edit - also this video

[LWO4Life]

Hulk said it best, because quite simply, matter is matter. Once a group of atoms travels through time, it's just sort of there. Changing the timeline doesn't do anything because you can always just explain that, "that's the way it's suppose to happen." By going back and "borrowing" the stones, the Avengers have to place them back to risk or alternative timelines. So Cap putting them all back at their place, allows the timelines to go back to normal and one can assume that if Cap goes back, he'd know that Loki will try to escape and he'll go back and stop Loki from escaping. Of course you can make a whole movie of Cap going back and making the timelines right again, because that'd be awesome. But for the sake of time travel, if Nebula kills Nebula, she's not going to just disappear in front of everyone, because Nebula already exist in reality, therefore can't unexist.

The only thing I have to straighten out is how Agent Carter the TV show now fits into everything. I haven't watched it yet, but from what I understand, it's based off Cap dying in WWII, and she moves on. Of course we see Cap go back and marry Peggy, and he's in a 1946 car, meaning when he went back to the past he didn't go back for his date, but went back a little later down the timeline to marry Peggy. So I wonder if that was done so it can give time for the events of Agent Carter TV show?

But other than that, the time travel story was pretty straight forward I thought.

[Powder]

The theories I have come across about Cap and Peggy is that Peggy's husband is never mentioned in the show, and that Cap is said husband, but keeps the events of the 1950s on to himself because he has to.

Also I just saw some Unanswered questions about Cap putting the stones back that are plot holes.

1. How did Cap put the soul stone back? Is there an "unsacrifice"? Also wouldn't it have been awesome to see Cap interact with Red Skull again?

2. How did Cap put the space stone back into the tesseract's cube case?

3. How did Cap put the Ether back into Jane?

4. How did Cap put the mind stone back into the scepter?

5. How did Cap put the power stone back into the orb and back into the laser field?

6. Giving the time stone back is easy.

A movie about Cap putting the stones back is screaming to be made.

[LWO4Life]

The theories I have come across about Cap and Peggy is that Peggy's husband is never mentioned in the show, and that Cap is said husband, but keeps the events of the 1950s on to himself because he has to.

Also I just saw some Unanswered questions about Cap putting the stones back that are plot holes.

1. How did Cap put the soul stone back? Is there an "unsacrifice"? Also wouldn't it have been awesome to see Cap interact with Red Skull again?

The fact we didn't get this scene does disappoint me greatly. This would have been awesome.

The answer to everything else... He had Thors Hammer... LOL

[comfortablynumb]

Cap putting the Soul Stone back made me think, “how’s that gonna work?”

Cap: here you go. Red Skull? Is that you?
Red Skull: Cap? WTF

[Powder]

Exactly.

Then what about 4 other stones as I stated prior? The time stone is easy. Cap: Ancient One...here you go. A.O.: Thanks.

[LWO4Life]

Cap putting the Soul Stone back made me think, “how’s that gonna work?”

Cap: here you go. Red Skull? Is that you?
Red Skull: Cap? WTF

As I said, this needs to have been an end credit scene or something. I'd pay good money to see this. And I do think it might have been that easy. Red Skull, here you go. Of course, couldn't they have used that as a way to explain someone coming back, a soul for a soul.

The others.

2. How did Cap put the space stone back into the tesseract's cube case? Use Thor's Hammer

3. How did Cap put the Ether back into Jane? Use Thor's Hammer (I'm sure he did this last)

4. How did Cap put the mind stone back into the scepter? Use Thors Hammer

5. How did Cap put the power stone back into the orb and back into the laser field? Use Thors Hammer

I was actually WAY more upset at him picking up the hammer than I was ever these plot holes. Because him picking up the hammer just made him very powerful and with no explanation at all. Once that happened, Cap basically becomes Superman. He's way too powerful to fail at anything.