Marvel Cinematic Universe - All Marvel Movie/TV discussion

[meandi]

Alright... I’ll be back in about 28 hours or so.

[Samuel 'Plan]

I loved it. Absolutely loved it. It's so different to Infinity War, but the two are so intrinsically linked. I said on Twitter to someone, it feels unfair to compare the two and pick a favourite - it's really two halves of a single film and I can't wait to do the double-bill one day, totally uninterrupted. I liked the fact it didn't spend forever trying to explain the 'rules' so to speak, and instead gave some passing recognition to establishing its own internal logic and then got on with telling the story. This was a film about the emotional core, and that was where the focus remained. I was in tears a good five or six times throughout the film, sometimes simply out of the sheer fanboying, sometimes because of feeling totally inspired and sometimes because of having my heart broken. I adored it, and am returning to see it tomorrow morning.

EDIT: For prudence, EXPLICIT SPOILERS BELOW!!






I've revised my truncated pathway through the MCU into five trilogies. What do you guys think?

The Tesseract Trilogy - Captain America: The First Avenger, Captain Marvel, Avengers Assemble

The Stones Trilogy - Thor: The Dark World, Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange

The Fallout Trilogy - Iron Man 3, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Avengers: Age of Ultron

The Civil War Trilogy - Captain America: Civil War, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Black Panther

The Infinity Trilogy - Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War, Avengers: Endgame

Unfortunately it keeps some of the weaker films in there, but you get all the Stones covered and explained. It also means Avengers is the introduction to Tony Stark, which isn't necessarily the best but does make room for the strongest solo film, Iron Man 3; a film, I think, that also puts the focus on his most defining character trait throughout, which his fear of what's coming from the void.

The idea really is that you're introduced to the MCU and its basic function in the first three films, with the first Infinity Stone introduced, the science-fiction elements there from the very beginning, Nick Fury being a big part of things from the onset and, of course, you get the background for Cap and Danvers both. Danvers disappearing off at the start also makes her absence for the rest of everything feel less like an awkward ret-con too. It also means you know who she is when she returns for Endgame, as there's no other in-movie explanation for her. It does mean introductions to Banner, Thor, Widow, Hawkeye and most importantly Stark are all left in the hands of the first Avengers film, which might seem strange but I think Avengers Assemble, as it was called in the UK, does a good job of introducing them to you if you haven't met them before.

From there, you flesh things out. In the second three, you get Thor fleshed out some more and an awareness of where he heads back to in Endgame, but most importantly you're introduced to three of the other six Infinity Stones and that's really where the focus of this second trilogy is - the Stones. The world-building gets expanded once the central notions of this universe have been introduced in the first trilogy, and the second now leans further into the other-worldliness of the franchise. I'm not a fan of Dark World or Strange, honestly, but the explanations of the Stones are worth the inclusion, and it does mean we're more familiar with Strange and who he is before he gets name-dropped in Winter Soldier; and, of course, prior to his quite important roles in the final two movies.

The third trilogy is meant to explore the human fallout and implications of the events of Avengers Assemble by bringing into focus the vitally important arcs of both Cap and Tony. If there's a failure in introducing Tony with this leaner take on the MCU it's made up for, I think, with the inclusion of his strongest solo film in my opinion (Iron Man 3) and a less distracted focus on his defining trait: his paranoia about what's coming from the void, explored in both his PTSD in IM3 and his plans in AOU. You get the Shield/Hydra stuff in Winter Soldier that gets revisited in Endgame, as well as more development for Cap ready for his decision to go rogue in Civil War, before wrapping the plot thread up in AOU, that also brings us the fifth of the six stones of course. It's also important to get that intro to Vision, and for the references Tony makes at the start of Endgame.

The fourth trilogy is the most fun I think, and is really there for the sake of greater context come Infinity War. Civil War is an obvious inclusion for obvious reasons, furthering the emotional arc of the central relationship between Cap and Tony, which in this version is pretty much at the centre of everything, and their individual arcs too, as well as introducing Spider and Panther and explaining the set-up for IW. Spidey's film is important to ensure the big emotional punches in IW and Endgame remain as effective as they are, while Panther is not only arguably the franchise best so should be included regardless but also helps set up Wakanda for the vital final acts of both IW and Endgame.

Then the final three. Infinity War and Endgame are self-explanatory. I don't like Ragnarok, but I include it because it's referenced in IW and Endgame both, tonally is in keeping more with Thor as he is in the final two movies, and nosedives straight into Infinity War as well. Plus, it's about something the Russos said when describing IW - that if Thor succeeded at the end, it would've been his movie; that he didn't makes it Thanos's movie instead, and I've always seen IW as basically "Thanos: The Movie" rather than an Avengers flick. In that sense, the final trilogy becomes a Thor film, a Thanos film and an Avengers film. I also think every movie Endgame references is now included - but I might be wrong on that front, as I've only seen it once - and as a result all those huge emotional beats in the final two movies will remain totally intact.

Sorry for the column! I posted it here rather than the other thread because, ya know, spoilers.

[comfortablynumb]

I like your groupings a lot but I think you'd have to include Iron Man 1 somewhere even if it doesn't fit any of those categories. It started everything.


I think my favorite scene from Endgame begins when Thor says "I knew it!"

[meandi]

If anything, you’d at least need IM 1’s post credit with Fury first approaching Tony thrown in there somewhere I would think.

[JacobWrestledGod]

As a finale of sorts, it’s the ultimate fan service movie. I enjoyed it.

But as a guy who really love his movies, this movie’s pacing, plot and execution were haphazard at times, the entire boring exposition about how the underlying method works (so much talking when they could have shown us instead), the breaking of the movie’s internal logic etc just took me out of the experience.

Put it this way, it’s like Russos have a series of wonderful personal moments and scene already penned down, then they wrote a entire movie around those scenes, making the underlying plot device and internal logic entirely illogical. I won’t spoil it but the ending in particular was wrong if we believe the way the plot works. Look at Inception for example. It was a movie that shows rather than tells with entirely boring expositions. It also never waver from its internal logic of how dreams work. That’s why I am disappointed in Endgame’s plot.

The worst was the “walking dead” effect. Too many people have “fake-died” so when one of the major characters did seem to die, instead of feeling sad, it was more of a “eh is it real or fake?” So much so that cast have to keep repeating the outcome over and over to get through to the audience that the death is permanent-death. I didn’t like that.

But strangely, I still enjoyed the movie. Because the sentimental aspect of it shines through so brightly. As a marvel fan. Perhaps this final episode is a must watch, but to expect it to be one n the level of the best marvel films, is a no-no.

[meandi]

I’d probably put this <just barely> in my top 5 MCU movies (for now). Overall, it was good, but you can’t watch it as a stand alone movie unfortunately, and I have a feeling that over time, this may be a downfall for it.

[Gooner]

I think... I need a few days to compose myself. Suffice to say though that after 22 MCU movies, they freaking nailed the landing.

It's not perfect, but by god is it good.

[SirSam]

Ok so how comfortable are we with spoilers in the thread at this point?

[Gooner]

I'd keep it to the spoiler thread for now, there's a separate one for Endgame.

[Samuel 'Plan]

I like your groupings a lot but I think you'd have to include Iron Man 1 somewhere even if it doesn't fit any of those categories. It started everything.

I still think Iron Man 2 does more in terms of setting up Tony's interaction and relationship with the rest of the MCU, but I totally see why Iron Man 1 would be an important film. I also realised you sort of need at least Ant-Man and the Wasp in there to explain the Quantum Realm and prevent it from feeling like a deus ex machina-style get-out in Endgame, with this reduced number of movies. So what if I push Avengers 1 to where Dark World was, get rid of Dark World entirely and sub in Iron Man 1 where Avengers 1 was. Then thrown in Ant-Man and the Wasp after Infinity War to create that final trilogy, with Endgame as a stand-alone at the end as the climax? Which, let's face it, is pretty much what it was! So the first three becomes more about SHIELD (Captain America: First Avenger, Captain Marvel, Iron Man (or Iron Man 2)), the second is still about the Infinity Stones (Avengers Assemble, Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange), the third remains unchanged and is about the fallout of the Chitauri invasion and SHIELD's influence (Iron Man 3, Captain America: Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron), the fourth is unchanged as well and about the rift in the Avengers and the emotional stakes for Infinity War (Captain America: Civil War, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Black Panther), and the fifth is the lead in to the big climax setting all the pieces in place for the finale (Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp) - and then, finally, Endgame itself.

I think my favorite scene from Endgame begins when Thor says "I knew it!"

I also agree on the favourite moment. Man, I marked out hard when the camera panned to Cap and the music kicked in. Cap's probably my favourite Avenger anyway, so it had double the effect!

I have to instinctively disagree on JWG's assertion that the ending breaks the movie's internal logic, and would be interested in hearing more on that front. I'd also point out that Inception has an entire scene in a warehouse where the group do nothing but engage in exposition... Lol. (Inception is a Top Ten OAT for me, I should say).

[meandi]

Space

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So let’s talk about this Black Widow thing... there’s apparently a solo Widow movie coming out in the next phase, but with Natasha being dead now, what’s the point? I’d reckon it would be an origin story, but with her dead now, why would I care about her origins if I’m not going to see her anymore? Almost makes me think they should’ve done the Widow movie instead of Captain Marvel. During End Game, Natasha pretty much took the lead with keeping up with Nebula, Rocket, Rhodey, etc after the flash forward, while Carol had just a few minutes total screen time. They could’ve kept Carol’s screentime as is, and maybe throw in a 45 second explanation of who she is, where she came from, how she knows Fury, etc after randomly bringing Tony and Nebula back to Earth. With the Widow solo movie coming out in Captain Marvel’s place, it would give a greater character arc for Natasha and make the Vormir scene all the more heart breaking. Then Carol’s origin movie could be put in place of the Widow movie instead, and we could’ve learned more about her as she leads the next wave of Avengers during phase 4 and after.

[Prime Time]

So I just added a few lines in the above post as there was a spoiler visible in the 'what's new' timeline, and now you actually have to click on the thread...

[meandi]

But... why? This is the spoiler thread. The title and your original post both state that.

[LK3185]

I didn’t care for the Ending because I don’t like how Cap didn’t move forward with his life... I saw it coming but I still thought it was stupid and thought it was pure fan service for one section of fans and the makers of the movie


Beyond that, and some minor issues.. I really liked the movie

[Prime Time]

But... why? This is the spoiler thread. The title and your original post both state that.

Because now you have to click on the thread to see the spoiler. Before, you could just click on the 'what's new' and come across it in the news feed. Now, you have to actually seek out the spoiler and there's no chance to come across it by accident.