LOPforums.com

Go Back   LOPforums.com > Pro Wrestling & MMA > The Columns Forum

The Columns Forum Home of the best wrestling Columnists on the internet

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-19-2009, 12:00 AM
Mavsman's Avatar
Mavsman Mavsman is offline
Seeing things is very... visual
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Posts: 349
Send a message via AIM to Mavsman
Default Nothing But Net #14: Connect Four


Welcome to the fourteenth edition of Nothing But Net. I am your humble host, Mavsman.

I’m mad. In fact, I’m livid. OK, I’m just mad. Mad with March Madness! Yes, it is that time of year, and I am psyched. The first two rounds of basketball games are some of the greatest days each and every year in sports. Seeing the upsets, the passion, and the traditions combine to create such an awesome atmosphere is truly a spectacle to behold. This year, I’m picking Louisville, Memphis, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse as my Final Four, with Louisville winning it all.

I’m sure you didn’t come here to listen to sports talk. Onto the wrestling matters at hand…


WrestleMania 25 is almost here, and I am getting pumped. Unlike most, I have virtually no problems with the card. Triple H and Randy Orton have been tearing it up with their intense rivalry and I expect the payoff at Mania to be superb. The triple threat World Heavyweight title match works for me and I don’t mind the storyline at all. The build for Hardy vs. Hardy has been great, even if I don’t feel it has gotten enough attention. The Undertaker and Shawn Michaels will hopefully have a phenomenal match and I like Shawn being shown as possessing a great chance to beat the streak. Mentioning that he has never lost a singles match to the Undertaker certainly helps. I fully expect the MITB match to be entertaining as it always has been to me in the past. Throw in the Diva Battle Royal, Tag Team Title Unification match, Legends/Jericho match, and an Intercontinental Title bout and you have a stellar card in my opinion.

Test recently passed away, yet another early death in wrestling. While the news was obviously saddening, I was not as upset as I was with the deaths of Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero. To me, Test was never that exciting of a wrestler. Since I wasn’t around for most of Test’s time, my most enduring memory of him was his run in ECW during late 2006 and early 2007 that culminated in a disappointing title match with Bobby Lashley at the Royal Rumble. Unfortunately, his death speaks more to me as yet another name being added to the ever growing list of premature deaths in the wrestling world rather than as an individual occurrence. Nonetheless, the passing on of any human being is sad, so my thoughts go out to Test and his family in this difficult time.

I recently read Mick Foley’s first autobiography. The book opened a little slow for me, but soon picked up and I couldn’t put it down. I bought his second autobiography as well as volume four of the WrestleMania Anthology on Amazon tonight and should receive them by Monday. Volume four contains WrestleManias 16-20, five PPVs that I have not seen from start to finish. I’m most intrigued to see whether WrestleMania 17 lives up to the hype, whether WrestleMania 19 is as underrated as they say, and just how good of an event WrestleMania 20 was beyond the two title matches. As far as Foley is Good is concerned, I’m just hoping that it can be at least half as good as the first autobiography was.


I am in the One Act Play for my school. The play is titled “Wireless” and was written by our director. I know that the phrase “written by the director” screams “SUBPAR PLAY AND PLOT!” I’ll be honest with you the plot is a little slow, and the play is average at best, but I really like the ideas involved. The play is very abstract and has a main theme of technology being a role in a human’s isolation even though it enables us to meet more people and discover new things. The play also concludes that when we do make a connection through technology, the relationship is often shallow and has very little real value. Rather paradoxical in that the more we are able to expand our horizons, the more we draw into our dark rooms and see the world through our computer screens.

I have conflicting emotions with the play. I enjoy using websites such as Facebook and Myspace to keep up with old friends, especially after I moved from my old hometown to my current location. I especially appreciate the chat option on Facebook. Without the chat option, I would not be nearly as caught up with my friends as I am. In fact, communication may have been completely discontinued with the friends I’m not as close with that I don’t text. Computers and texting have become the main ways of communicating with people for me in truth. I’m sure many individuals might still call their family members to keep in touch, but for most people, it is much easier to send out a quick email. Who can blame them? One of the primary roles of technology in all facets is to make daily tasks easier and more efficient. Hell, that’s why we have things like the microwave and the dishwasher, to save time. Technology also helps make life fun. Video games are a great way to entertain yourself on a cold, gray day when it seems the world is just begging you to stay inside.

On the other hand, a result of living in such a technological world is our tendency to get sucked into the machinery that makes life more enjoyable. Many a times have I come home with every intention of doing something productive, only to turn on the TV, look up later, and realize three hours have passed. In appliances like the microwave, the phrase “patience is a virtue” can be readily applied. Yes, we can get our food faster, but we don’t stop demanding the quickness technology brings us in other areas of our lives. “Broken relationships shouldn’t take long to fix! Homework shouldn’t last longer than thirty minutes!” Yet often, the things that are best for us are the things that take the longest to achieve.

Technology is now carved into the woodwork of wrestling. It’s hard to believe there was a time when wrestling wasn’t even televised and was actually considered a sport, but there was. Television was a cause of wrestling becoming less sport and more show. One doesn’t exactly see collegiate or amateur wrestling lighting up Monday night television. Once when I did catch a college wrestling meet on ESPN, I wasn’t impressed. It was like a wrestling match comprised of nothing but restholds; not enthralling programming to say the least. That’s not to say that today’s programming is always riveting though. Free TV matches have become somewhat of a joke. Each week, Raw runs for a total of 125 minutes. Last week, Raw contained 23 minutes and 35 seconds of actual wrestling. That means there was 1 hour, 41 minutes, and 25 seconds of non wrestling, ranging from promos to commercials to ring entrances. It’s about money; the WWE is not going to give away quality wrestling, nor copious amounts of wrestling for free. No, the viewer has to buy a PPV to see that.

One such PPV is Cyber Sunday, where technology in wrestling took on a whole new form. Originally called Taboo Tuesday (creatively held on a Tuesday to fit the name), Cyber Sunday is an annual event where the WWE embraces the Internet’s powerful role in wrestling (more on that later). Before and even during the event, fans are encouraged to go online and vote for various participants and stipulations for that night’s matches. Recently, the WWE has even gotten fans to pay for the privilege of affecting the event through 99 cent text messages. If you have already paid 40 dollars to watch an average PPV, why not spend another dollar saying you want Goldust to face Santino Marella? The WWE long ago realized how significant the World Wide Web is in the wide world of wrestling. To their credit, through events like Cyber Sunday, the WWE are doing their best to survive in this new Internet age. They have revolutionized their website in an attempt to draw views away from websites like Lords of Pain. Hence, the “Insider News” tab was created. They also show exclusive videos and programs on the website, such as after match interviews and shows like The Dirt Sheet. However, no matter what pictures they post or what power rankings they hold, the WWE will never be able to compete with what the IWC can offer.


The IWC is an acronym for the “Internet Wrestling Community” where smarks worldwide log onto the Internet to share their wrestling wisdom and fandom all at once. “Smark” is a term that came to prominence in this IWC era and is the merging of the words “smart” and “mark”. The two terms are somewhat contradictory as, according to an online wrestling encyclopedia, a mark is a fan who believes that everything shown on TV by the WWE is real. Someone who is smart would hopefully see through that charade. A smark knows that wrestling is fake and still enjoys it. Everyone on LOP is a smark.

However, speaking as a smark, sometimes I wish I could go back to being a simple mark. Because now, as a smark, I bear the burden of the knowledge I carry. The formula of wrestling has been exposed to me. A run-of-the-mill Whisper in the Wind won’t win a match. A guy like Finlay won’t be winning the Royal Rumble anytime soon. Jamie Noble will never smell the WWE Championship. A mark may believe that all of those things may occur, but a mark knows better. And yet, smarks still carry symptoms of marks. They still want to “mark out”, or believe in kayfabe in other words. But the weight of the knowledge a smark carries makes it much harder to mark out. It takes surprises from left field nowadays, with Exhibit A being John Cena’s 2008 Royal Rumble win and Exhibit B being CM Punk’s World Heavyweight Championship victory.

Much more of a smark’s marking out fix comes in the form of a favorite wrestler. This wrestler is somebody the smark attaches to as a favorite and anything this wrestler does is flawless in the smark’s eyes (somewhat exaggerated, but I’ve seen it). The smark develops a one-sided relationship with this wrestler, a relationship that can form the foundation of a viewing schedule. It is the smark that will cheer when Randy Orton RKOs Stephanie McMahon instead of booing male on female violence. It is the smark that lauds his favorite wrestler over any other wrestler despite glaring shortcomings. A relationship with a wrestler is one of the main things that connects a smark to the regular world of wrestling.

There are many intricacies that are weaved into the web of professional wrestling, however there are a few aspects that form the base from which all of wrestling is built. Among the chief matters of importance are wrestling skills (obviously), storytelling (both in and out of the ring), and a relationship between wrestler and fan. The personal relationship that develops between a wrestler and a fan is the difference between Jimmy Wang Yang and Stone Cold Steve Austin, hell, even between Rocky Maivia and The Rock. Many wrestlers subscribe to the belief that the best wrestling personalities are parts of a wrestler exaggerated and played over the top (Stone Cold the redneck, cocky Rocky, and arrogant Randy Orton). These over-the-top personalities are what bond the fan to a wrestler. In some cases, opposites attract. In this instance, the fan or smark may wish he had that characteristic the wrestler plays off, such as Stone Cold’s rebellious attitude, even though that fan is the epitome of a law-abiding, tax paying citizen. In other cases, a fan connects to a wrestler he can relate to, such as my fandom of Shawn Michaels. I connect to Shawn Michaels being a Christian family man of high morals and the fact we share the same birthday.

However, in cases such as mine, the Internet plays a powerful role in the relationship. I more than likely would not have known that HBK and I share a birthday if it weren’t for the Internet. I probably would be ignorant to the fact that he is a born again Christian, as it is only implied on the air and never absolutely stated. But the Internet has done more to my relationship with wrestling than just let me know when HBK’s birthday is. It drastically altered my wrestling fandom. I’m sure most of us were simple marks at one point in life. I know I was. Sometimes, as mentioned, I wish I still was. I miss the wonder of thinking that each TV match actually meant something, the joy of seeing a favorite face win a title match, literally fearing and hating heels. Now that I’m a smark, I sit at my computer while Raw is on, the joy of a favorite face winning the title is diminished due to weeks of rumors and spoilers, and heels are now some of my favorite wrestlers.

If it weren’t for the Internet, some smarks would not have even heard of their favorite wrestler. After all, it’s kind of hard to stay interested in a wrestler when you can’t see their matches. Now all you have to do is go on YouTube or Dailymotion and type in “ROH” and a plethora of matches are assembled. Without this ability, anybody who wrestled for Ring of Honor or for a foreign promotion would be essentially irrelevant on the wrestling scene. I mean, sure, some people might pay for a ROH home video, but I’d place money on the number of viewers being significantly reduced. Imagine a world without the Internet and you imagine a world without Jimmy Jacobs, Nigel McGuinness, or KENTA.


So, has technology helped or hurt wrestling? Certainly, expanding one’s boundaries is a wonderful thing to do whenever you can. A little bit of culture never harmed anyone; certainly the same is true in wrestling. If you season your WWE viewing (or lack thereof) with a pinch of ROH or a dash of NJPW, all the more power to you. However, I’m left thinking about which relationship between fan and wrestler/wrestling promotion is more genuine. Is it the mark with his simple love of all things WWE? Or is it the smark who knows that more exists? I’m reminded instantly of the quantity vs. quality debate. Quantity is represented by the smark who makes as many wrestling connections as he can by way of the Internet. Quality is represented by the mark that may not make as many connections as an Internet smark but whose connections are deeper and more “real” in a sense. There is no mathematic formula here to establish weights to a wrestling relationship and carry out the arithmetic. It’s not that simple. Some hard questions need to be answered before we can arrive at a conclusion. Are these Internet connections that we create cheap? Is it simply about numbers now, how many obscure federations you know of, how many wrestlers you can name? Does a smark isolate himself from real wrestling connections with his pursuit of an abundance of connections?

There really isn’t a correct answer. It all comes down to your personal interpretation, which is doubtlessly shaped by your own personal experiences with wrestling. For those newer to the online wrestling scene, maybe you feel that having all this knowledge of backstage events, comprehension of foreign promotions, and insight into the personal lives of wrestlers is priceless and something that should never be given up. Others who have been around longer might feel jaded by the online world in which they live. These are the people who might pine for the days of old, wishing they had never discovered the IWC, that they were a mark rather than a smark.

My personal belief is that the IWC and technology in general are a mixed blessing for wrestling. Rather anti-climatic, I know, but I do think that there are both pros and cons to the integration of technology into the wrestling world. On the one hand, the IWC means there are websites like LOP Forums that allow for wrestling fans worldwide to interact, fans (like me) who might not have anybody else with whom they can discuss wrestling. The IWC certainly allows us to broaden our wrestling horizons to discover new worlds. Technology in the form of Youtube and DVDs allow fans to relive classic wrestling moments whenever they want. Technology allows for a more convenient wrestling world; everything is available all the time. On the other hand, it is my personal experience that becoming a part of the IWC can cause a person to become jaded with wrestling. The shows become less exciting. Flaws are much more pronounced. Suddenly, you start to look for the negatives before you look for the positives. Having DVDs to re-watch classic matches can cause a person to become stuck in the past, making them even more dissatisfied with the current product. Technology can cause us to become less patient with wrestling. Seeing everybody and their mother’s opinion on wrestling makes us see the flaws of wrestling and become tired of it much quicker. If pushed to give an answer, I would only say that I would not want to get rid of technology in wrestling. Change is inevitable, and the one made from non-IWC to IWC was not so horrific that I’d wish to get rid of it.


The play I’m in comes to the conclusion that it is better to hold off making false connections by means of technology in order to make a genuine one. I think that genuine relationships are certainly a noble thing to shoot for, but I question how attainable they really are. For me, it is insane to suggest that we should get rid of technology because it isolates us from human contact. Rather, I think we should celebrate how far we have come in terms of technological advancements, continuing to push to see just how far we can go. I do see the merit in making strives to keep true human connections and hope that we do not lose those as we push further into the future both in wrestling and in the real world.


That’s just about it for this edition of Nothing But Net. I hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it.

I’d just like to take a moment to congratulate Daveyboy on a fantastic career. While I know he probably won’t read this, he truly was an inspiration for me as a column writer. The Wrestling Menu was the only column I read for the longest time, and is still one of the few columns I try to catch as often as I can. Daveyboy will leave 300 columns with us and a tremendous legacy to boot. It’s the end of an era on the Main Page. So in true WWE fashion, I’d like to wish Daveyboy the best in all of his future endeavors.

Well, until next time, this is Mavsman, reminding you that the Mavericks are not out of it yet this year…
__________________

Thanks to Noc

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-19-2009, 12:19 AM
cicero cicero is offline
.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 956
Send a message via AIM to cicero
Default

I've been waiting a while for this Mavsman, and it's great to see that you didn't disapoint.

Although, like you said yourself, the ending was a bit of a cop out.

Quite possibly the best column I've read so far this month.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-19-2009, 08:33 AM
Martin Riggs Martin Riggs is offline
Call me Boom. J, Boom.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,471
Send a message via AIM to Martin Riggs Send a message via Skype™ to Martin Riggs
Default

Very interesting. It was a thoroughly enjoyable read, and you made some good points for both sides. I think you may have inspired me to write a column saying how i love being a smark, which is pretty cool! Again, very enjoyable, keep up that good work!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-19-2009, 02:06 PM
The Maz's Avatar
The Maz The Maz is offline
Screw you! I AM Awesome
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mauritius
Posts: 2,863
Send a message via Skype™ to The Maz
Default

Remember that young man, wise beyond his years that was absolutely tearing the CF apart before and during the early rounds of CSI? HE'S BACK! It's been way too long but if you keep these coming, we will see you on the Main Page without all the colours that are with you at the moment before too long. Excellent stuff and as always, an interesting unique angle to your work.
__________________
A Rumble 2 for 1 Special
Out Now Here
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-19-2009, 10:20 PM
JoeyShinobi's Avatar
JoeyShinobi JoeyShinobi is offline
Nuts on the road.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,153
Default

You can't avoid change. It's about how you use it to effect the way you live your life.

When it comes to wrestling, technology means I can catch up on history and speak to other wrestling fans, and download shows I've missed because I don't have cable. I'm trying to protect my innocence in terms of spoilers and so forth, and it's the IWC equivalent of not getting a Blu-ray dvd player (something else I've never bothered with).

Within technology, you have choices, it's not just one thing or the other. That's the one thing that maybe didn't come across in this piece. But it certainly got me thinking about a topic I'd never really considered, so yet again, you've done a quite superb job. Welcome back.
__________________


"I started out with nothin', and I still got most of it left"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-19-2009, 11:21 PM
Bloodline's Avatar
Bloodline Bloodline is offline
Grisly Old Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Near water
Posts: 151
Send a message via AIM to Bloodline Send a message via MSN to Bloodline
Default



All I can say is.....he's back!
__________________

Courtesy of NOC!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2009, 12:39 AM
SkittleZ's Avatar
SkittleZ SkittleZ is offline
<<< Sir Fruity >>>
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,037
Send a message via AIM to SkittleZ
Default

Oh those WWE bastards will zap your wallet at every possible turn. There's no question about it. I'd personally never spend a few dollars to vote for a pay per view that might very well be fixed anyways. I mean how are we supposed to rely in a fake sport to give legit results?

Since I'm a little older, I fondly remember wrestling before the internet and I.W.C. really hit their stride. Even though I'm constantly reading spoilers or rumors from the Main Page, it barely ever takes away the excitement and enjoyment of watching the WWE product. When I read the SmackDown spoilers where Edge showed up on SmackDown in 2007 and cashed in his MITB opportunity, I tuned in Friday night (which I only do a few times per year) and watched as if it were completely unexpected. I think it's part of a fan's mentality too.

This was very well executed, Mavsy. Like I've told you several times, you may be the top guy in the CF when it comes to taking personal situations or scenarios and connecting them to pro wrestling. I played a big part in molding you into the superb columnist you are today but I won't take all the credit for your success.

I know it's hard not getting wrapped up in school but PLEASE try your hardest to stick around semi consistently. I've come to really look forward to NBN and we could definitely use a guy like you on the Main Page sooner rather than later. Therefore, I expect another edition in three weeks or less!
__________________
9 Eras Of Awesomeness And Counting...

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-21-2009, 01:15 AM
Kano Kano is online now
sXe
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,288
Send a message via MSN to Kano
Default

Dude, welcome back it's been far to long. I really enjoyed this man, well written. Please tell us you have another one in the works as the CF could do with talent like you posting reguarly.

Keep up the top work dude, I'm looking forward to number #15
__________________
Thanks PIG-E
PIG-E lopforums newest graphic designer
Follow me on Twitter: @KaneBurt
You know you wanna tweet me
Ask me anything http://formspring.me/Kano

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-22-2009, 01:51 AM
Leonard's Avatar
Leonard Leonard is offline
You'll thank me later.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 438
Send a message via AIM to Leonard
Default

Hey Mavsman:

This is the first time I've read your column, and I am very impressed with what was presented. The IWC is indeed the textbook definition of a "double-edged sword," and I appreciated your viewpoints on the subject. In my most recent column, I wrote a "rant" of sorts on the perceived negativity of the IWC, and I would have cited this piece had I read it before I "published." Regardless, excellent work, and I look forward to the next edition.

--Leonard
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-22-2009, 02:14 PM
Mavsman's Avatar
Mavsman Mavsman is offline
Seeing things is very... visual
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Posts: 349
Send a message via AIM to Mavsman
Default

cicero- Yes, the ending was a little bit of a cop out, but I thought I provided a fair indication of my stance by saying that I would not want to get rid of the IWC.

JohnnyBoomerang- The main goal of any column of mine is to make people think or evaluate their stance on a topic. I suppose someone writing a column in response is doing that one better!

Mazza- I was robbed in the CSI! Seriously though, you are doing a great job and congrats on making it to the finals. Main Page, huh? I could say the same about you.

JoeyShinobi- You certainly do have choices and I, like you, do my best to avoid spoilers. But, using your Blu-Ray DVD player anology, at some point they will stop making DVDs just like there aren't VHS tapes anymore. So what do you do at that point?

Bloodline- *bows*

SkittleZ- I too tuned in that Friday night already knowing Edge would win the title. But wouldn't it have been ten times more awesome if you had no clue that was going to happen? I think so at least. And I'll do my best to stay around consistently. I'm planning on having NBN #15 out at the end of March.

Kano- Yeah, I already have the plan for #15 and I'm very excited about it. It will be one of the funner columns for me to write and I hope that will come across to the readers as well.

lenjr04- "Double-Edged Sword" really is an apt description for the IWC. You live by the sword, you die by the sword?

To all- Thank you for the kind words and feedback. It felt good to get another column out, and I hope that school doesn't get in the way of column writing yet again.
__________________

Thanks to Noc

Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-23-2009, 08:29 PM
Roger Murtaugh's Avatar
Roger Murtaugh Roger Murtaugh is offline
The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 1,128
Send a message via AIM to Roger Murtaugh Send a message via MSN to Roger Murtaugh Send a message via Yahoo to Roger Murtaugh
Default

The internet is a tricky beast. It helps widen one's knowledge of the "sport" but also kills their appreciation for the little things. Personally I'm all for Vince cracking down on his guys leaking storylines. While I may love looking up wrestling related stories and past events I'd much rather get hit with surprises like I did some time ago.

Take something like Christian returning, if it wasn't for the net him showing up on ECW would have been a shock. Giving it still was surprising, but I already knew he had signed with the company. Even TNA made that information available.

You just have to take the good with the bad sometimes.

Good to have you back, and it's nice to see some of the "regs" making their presence known.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-24-2009, 01:21 PM
BeyondKnight's Avatar
BeyondKnight BeyondKnight is offline
Mostly Pointless
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,008
Default

Mavs,

I think the secret in smark/mark relationship is being able to critique but at the same time engage and enjoy the product on a personal level. Having the abilitly to be there, live in the audience, seeing directly with your own eyes makes a helluva difference. I know, I was there in attendance for the Edge Money in the Bank cash in after the Steel Cage match. I had been there live the night before when he won the briefcase from Mr. Kennedy @ Penn State during Raw.

You have become an excellent columnist, especially at such a young age with only 15 or so editions to your resume. Break a leg in your show!

~BK
__________________
~~ I hear voices in my head, they laugh at me, they call me Fred! ~~
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-25-2009, 05:15 PM
XanMan's Avatar
XanMan XanMan is online now
I...Want...Six-man
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,465
Default

This was quite good, Mavs. I find it a very hard line to walk between being a fan and being a "smark." In a lot of ways I hate being a smark, but I love writing about wrestling, and in some ways think I'm addicted to LoP for wrestling news. I hate spoilers for specific shows, but lately I'm thinking spoilers of wrestlers leaving and signing, etc. is just as bad. I try to balance out my fanhood the way Joey suggested in his feedback.
__________________
Crafted by the Notorius P-I-G

"Note to self: don't change for anyone
Note to self: don't die
Note to self: don't change for anyone
Don't change, just lie"--Ryan Adams
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LordsofPain.net > Headlines > News > Results > Columns > Indy > Videos > Forums > Contact

Graphics for LOPforums.com provided by Noc