Israel's blockade of Gaza

[Irishsara]

Israel has been enforcing a blockade of Gaza. It is a full economic blockade. This blockade has been tight since 2007.


"We shall not allow aid ships to reach Gaza — not now and not later on," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said earlier this week.

Israel is punishing the people for democratically electing Hamas as their leaders in Gaza. The economic effects have been horrible. Unemployment has balooned in Gaza. the economy has been crushed. extreme enforced poverty and food price rises caused by Israeli enforced shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel.

According to the United Nations, unemployment has tripled since the blockade began and more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

Israel might not have a legal right to intercept the ship on the high seas depending on UN international law.

This is just Israel using Collective punishment to a people who voted for people that Israel did not agree with. Gaza is occupied territory, and Israel is the occupying power, it controls the boarder and prevents anything from getting to Gaza.

This is an attack on civilians.

Tony Blair and many european nations have spoken out against the blockade.

So where do you all stand on the Israeli blockade?

[drchannard]

Would you support a blockade on Canada if they elected Osama Bin Laden as their leader?

The Hamas are considered a terrorist group (by Tony Blair and the many european countries that you speak of, among others) that wants the complete destruction of Isreal and isn't interested at all in a two state solution. It's horrid that innocent people have to suffer for this but if that's who they elected as their leaders, I'm not really sure on what you can do that prevents the terrorists from getting aid and allows the innocent suffering people to get aid.

It's slightly along the lines of the BP boycott that people are calling for. When many people boycott BP, it's going to hurt the people with jobs at the stations, oil rigs, and other employees before it hurts BP. BUT, if you allow BP to continue without any consiquences, they will continue to do the same thing.

[Irishsara]

But it doesnt stop the terrorists from getting anything. The UN has said the blockade has failed to hurt Hamas. Hamas uses extensive tunnels to arm themselves and they take a huge tax from controlling the black market. they take whatever they want and can use. Its a multi-million-dollar black market economy run by Hamas. It gets concrete, weapons, and all the feul they want. It did not lessen the need for Israeli raids on Hamas targets and it did not lessen the deaths that the Israeli forces inflict on Palestinian men (even when they are unarmed).

it really hurts the United Nations aid attempt for the common people.

A boycott is different. Like Sanctions against Iran are different because it is individual people or countries making the decision instead of just one country making the decision.

[Ian Clark]

Ugh... the Israel/Palestine situation is one I don't really give much thought to, not because I don't have informed opinions on it, but because it makes me want to put my fist through a wall. Hamas is a terrorist organization, definitely, but it's not even slightly fair to give Israel a pass based on that. While the vast majority of civilians in both Israel and Palestine openly support a two-state solution, those in power on either side seemingly do not. If the climate is to be one of war, you can't entirely blame the people of Palestine for electing warriors (note, of course, that I do not use "warrior" as a positive term), even if you can blame the people they elected. Israel is a country that developed a nuclear program without telling anyone (in other words, defeating the purpose unless they actually plan on using it), and they haven't played nice any more than the Palestinians have. There's no excuse for blocking UN Aid ships, these are not ships carrying guns, they are ships carrying food, and it takes away any claim to moral high ground Israel may have had in the past. Terrorism doesn't just come in the form of small militant groups, terrorism comes in any agency that works to spread terror and horror, and blocking UN Aid ships to create a state of poverty certainly fits the criteria.

The people of both Israel and Palestine need to wake up and elect better leaders who can actually stop the fighting, but it's hard to smarten up when all around you is death and destruction.

[drchannard]

they take whatever they want and can use.

Right, so if things are being shipped into Gaza that the terrorists can use, wouldn't this make it easier to obtain than through a black market? The blockade might not have hurt Hamas from obtaining the same materials that they've always had access too, but it also hasn't added more materials that they can use to the equation. If you say that the blockade didn't lessen the need for Israeli raids on Hamas targets, I ask you if the attacks increased after the blockade or if they remained the same? (Honest question, I really don't know.) If Hamas had increased supplies, I would assume that the raids on Hamas targets would increase and that the deaths of Palestinian men, armed or not, would increase as well.

I'm not saying that Israel is completely innocent in all of this. Obviously they handled the attack on the Gaza bound aide convoy in the worst way possible and should suffer some sort of punishment for it. Also, when asked to temporarily halt construction in the Gaza strip to try and start some peace negotiations, they essentially ignored the request for reasons I cannot fathom.

It really sucks that the innocent/common Gaza and Palestinian people have to suffer for this. It really does. But if you give aid to the terrorists and they increase their attacks on Israel, it's not going to end the suffering of those innocent people, it's just going to make the suffering of the innocent Israeli's increase.

[Marvin]

I think if anything, the blockade should be tightened, if possible.

A good 80% of palestinians are either terrorists currently, or will be in the future.

[ChrisBear]

What did Paul Gascoigne ever do to Israel?

[Irishsara]

If you say that the blockade didn't lessen the need for Israeli raids on Hamas targets, I ask you if the attacks increased after the blockade or if they remained the same? (Honest question, I really don't know.) If Hamas had increased supplies, I would assume that the raids on Hamas targets would increase and that the deaths of Palestinian men, armed or not, would increase as well.


It really sucks that the innocent/common Gaza and Palestinian people have to suffer for this. It really does. But if you give aid to the terrorists and they increase their attacks on Israel, it's not going to end the suffering of those innocent people, it's just going to make the suffering of the innocent Israeli's increase

.

2,048 rockets were fired in 2008 after the blockade in 2007. So clearly the Blockade did not lessen the ability for Hamas and other militants to fire rockets into Israel.

Mind you a mutually agreed to ceasefire (which was broken by the Israelis when they sent tanks into Gaza ) ended 98% of the rocket attacks.

Hamas has begun to become more politically involved in 2009 and there were still 566 rockets fired from Gaza. Mind you Israel dropped more bombs in Gaza then Gaza fired rockets into Israel.
How do you define Terrorist drchannard?

The Israeli defense force killed more civillians then Hamas has in the last 3 years.

The way to do this is a peace process but if America and the international community backs Israel and does not question Israel's actions and take them to task for it then the peace process will never happen.

Terrorists can be involved in the peace process. Look at Ireland. it can happen but this economic blockade creates a breeding ground for extreme thought. Espeically if Israel is killing unarmed divers off the coast of Gaza.

[steve]

I think if anything, the blockade should be tightened, if possible.

A good 80% of palestinians are either terrorists currently, or will be in the future.

Amen, brother. I'll go you one better. I believe Israel should've wiped Palestine off the map years ago. Let the few survivors take refuge in amongst the rest of the Islamic savages in the region.

[Slap]

I think if anything, the blockade should be tightened, if possible.

A good 80% of palestinians are either terrorists currently, or will be in the future.

4 years ago, that would have caused a massive uproar here at lop, saying something like that.

Now a days, without goatee and what not, it's just an accepted stereotype, lol.

[Marvin]

Why would it cause an uproar if it's true? Okay, so its not exactly 80%, but it is around 80%.

Anyone who gets offended by verified facts needs a head doctor.

[Zig]

Amen, brother. I'll go you one better. I believe Israel should've wiped Palestine off the map years ago. Let the few survivors take refuge in amongst the rest of the Islamic savages in the region.

We savages have feelings too, you know.

[Irishsara]

Technically only 45% of people in Gaza support Hamas according to the votes.

38% support the Intifada as well.

[Marvin]

WTF? I never even mentioned Hamas. Learn to read please.

[Irishsara]

I just assumed you meant the people who supported the use of violence (which would be who supported Hamas over the Fatah who supports the peace process and moving away from violence.)

AND the Intifada is the actual violent "terrorist" actions ... .

So maybe i just assumed you were more informed then you actually are. My Fault

[Marvin]

Oh sorry, were you assuming people who support terrorist actions actually declare themselves as such?

How naive.

[Zig]

I mean, if I went into an airport and said "I'm a terrorist!", I'd be shot faster than GNR blows his load.

[Irishsara]

But you can vote for whomever you want. Its not like you tell people who you vote for. Its why Hamas won the election because people could express those views. Right? Its like why everyone in Alabama wasnt a klansman openly but could vote for George Wallace for Gov. of Alabama as the segregationist candidate.

Its why Hamas did better in the election then it did in the initial polling.

[Marvin]

But you are omplying that people intent on mayhem are going to vote conscientiously. Elections in Palestine don't mean a thing. It doesn't matter who won or who didn't win. There would still be rockets being fired into Israel. The vast majority (approx 80%), publically or privately, are active with Hamas, or intend to be active with Hamas in the future.

[Irishsara]

Wait. By involved do you mean

like associating with hamas (like you know someone personally in Hamas?)

Do you mean like actively support like give them a place to sleep or food ? (aid and comfort)

do you mean like Wearing a scarf and carrying a AK 47 (Active membership)

Or do you mean like involved like buying or being given food, building materials, clean water, gasoline, and medicine from Hamas?

Because the last one i TOTALLY agree with you, there is at least 80% who are involved in the black market economy or have received goods from the black market economy or have received water or charity from Hamas.

But that is only because the Israelis have not lived up their promises. The israelis have expanded settlements, stood in the way of a two state solution, and have been brutal against the civilian population. That will drive people into the arms of the leaders that can actually help them.

How many attacks were there when the peace process was working? from 1998 - 2000? Who failed? the Israelis. Who broke the last ceasefire? the Israelis. If you create an environment where the people's only choice is extremism then extremism is what is going to happen. Its been that way since the American revolution. The forced military blockade of the Port of Boston is what set off the American revolution on a national scale then just a regional one by the sons of liberty.

and the first one MIGHT be true but you could say that about any poor area of a major urban city and street criminals .

[Marvin]

My wording was slightly off-kilter in my last post, and I apologise. I was referring to those with links to organisations that may or may not have a public affiliation with Hamas, but have similar aims.

I certainly dont mean those wearing scarves or hoods and bearing arms, but more underground organisations.

I know you have an interest in terrorist organisations, so I am sure you are aware of the websites that track actual support levels of these factions, rather than the documented figures on mainstream news sources. If not, I can hook you up.

[Slap]

so what you're saying is all people of middle eastern decent are probable terrorists.

[Marvin]

Well, that is simplifying it, but basically yes. Although I am waiting for Sara to reply.

[Slap]

and what you're also saying is all black people are either pro athletes or criminals

[Marvin]

The evidence probably points in that direction, but I wouldn't automatically say that was true. Although, it is probably a valid area of investigation.

[Irishsara]

There are no jobs, There isnt enough aid, power, clean water, and cement to fix what the IDF keep knocking down with their airstrikes. This is going to cause MORE people to turn to crime, like it would in ANY GHETTO where unemployment is around 50%.

The IDF puts out things with people involved in the underground movement (mind you 80% of the people in Gaza rely on Hamas' underground's market to survive) and those numbers are inflated. There is widespread public support on the Palestinian side for Hamas becoming more the middle but the people cannot trust Israel because Israel has never kept a single promise in the peace process.

[Tito]

Another day, another "I hate Israel" thread by IrishSara.

Hamas is not to be trusted. Israel gave the Palestinians their Gaza strip back but Palestinians installed a Jew-hating Hamas government there after Israel's generosity. Why can't you admit that, Sara?

[Irishsara]

in 2006, Israel (finally, after agreeing to do so years before) removes all settlements from Gaza. Israel finally hands back control of the area to the Palestinians Well except the airspace, borders, ports, internal water rights, and electricity. The israelis restrict their movements, work permits, ability to travel outside Gaza, force them to keep identification papers issued by the israelis, Israel send tanks and strike teams into Gaza to kill people and many times have high level of civilian casualties. They have had more airstrikes into gaza then gaza has had rocket attacks this year. The Israelis broke the ceasefire that eliminated 95% of the rocket attacks. How is that Hamas' fault?

There was an election. the Israelis had not honored their treaty obligations. Hamas was seen as an alternative. Hamas was fixing houses, feeding people, and distributing medicine to the people. I wonder why they won. (and not by much)

in the words of Sir Gerald Kaufman, the veteran Labour member of Parliament in the UK (also Jewish) he said “I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

What Right does Israel have to control the Palestinian ports and control ships destined for Gaza?

I mean does Turkey have the same right to restrict Israeli shipping going out of the Mediterranean?

[Tarrasque]

The Israeli government recently doctored one of the videos of the shootings that have been circulating TV and the internet. This video is being played on BBC like clockwork. What did they doctor? They added in the voice of a woman saying "Go back to Auschwitz!". As if someone saying that would justify massacring innocent civilians.

But really, Israel has been committing war crimes against the Palestinian people for more than 50 years. So I don't understand why everyone is pissed now.

[Ian Clark]

My wording was slightly off-kilter in my last post, and I apologise. I was referring to those with links to organisations that may or may not have a public affiliation with Hamas, but have similar aims.

That's a pretty suspect definition of "terrorist", for many reasons, not the least of which is that if 80% of the population relies on Hamas' underground market, it's either be classified a terrorist or die of starvation. Public opinion polls still indicate that the majority of Palestinians support calm negotiations with Israel rather than a war, and I'd say their attitude towards whether or not they favour violence is the indicator of whether or not they are terrorists.

There's no excuse to block UN aid ships or try to bleed dissenters into submission when the opportunity to negotiate with them is in fact right there. The violence and force needs to end and both sides need to stop looking for a victory and start looking for a resolution. When we in the West try to pick a side, all we do is validate the bullshit and bloodshed.

[FearlessVampireKiller]

so what you're saying is all people of middle eastern decent are probable terrorists.

Hands off the rope.

Well, that is simplifying it, but basically yes.

Ties his own noose.

and what you're also saying is all black people are either pro athletes or criminals

Helps him up onto the chair.

The evidence probably points in that direction, but I wouldn't automatically say that was true. Although, it is probably a valid area of investigation.

Time of death: 7:14 PM.

Actually, this last comment leads me to believe that Marvin is some sort of brilliant satirist who is either too ironic for his own good or else suffers on account of operating in a society where the standard tenor of debate is so close to comic farce that actual farce is indistinguishable (which is a big problem these days).

Israel seems to be working under an unusual definition of democracy. "You are free to elect whatever leaders you choose, so long as we approve of your choice."

Apparently the proper way to prosecute terrorists is to punish civilians by intentionally instigating a humanitarian crisis. We learn so much from our Israeli friends. There are rules about collective punishment, but I guess, like usual, Israel just gets to do whatever it pleases on account of being Israel.

Now the Israeli's are refusing to consent to a UN investigation of their attack on the flotilla. "We didn't do anything wrong, but we won't allow any objective party to verify that." Yeah, nothing suspicious about that stance at all. Care to comment on why it's suddenly okay to attack a ship in international waters? No? Okay, well, just asking.

The Israeli government denies that there is any ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, but UNICEF reports that nearly 80% of the strip's inhabitants are impacted by food shortages, and WHO estimates that 10% of Gazan children suffer from malnutrition. Yeah, I'm sure they're all perfectly fine in there, they were probably overfed before the blockade anyway, right?

One thing's for sure, the Israelis are certainly winning the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people today. I'm confident that all those starving Palestinian children will grow up harboring no grudge whatsoever, and there'll be no blowback of any sort in the future. I'm sure publicly pissing off the only Muslim country allied with them will do wonders for Israel's international relations as well. Just an amazing group of people running that country, I'm positively floored at their political savvy. Simply floored.

[Irishsara]

It blows my mind that Israel is deliberately pissing off Turkey. Turkey has the second largest standing armed force in NATO. they are the most moderate muslim country and has longstanding ties with The US.

Israel just says whatever they want because they dont answer to anyone. the Israeli navy fired on a group of Palestinians in wet suits who the Israeli military alleged were en route to carry out an attack inside Israel. The problem is ... well these men were members of the the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (The military wing of the israeli allied Fatah party) who were unarmed on a training mission.

See, Israel can just shoot to kill anyone they want. They killed six unarmed men and its no big deal.

[drchannard]

How do you define Terrorist drchannard?

Well, a system that supports men, women, and children that strap bombs to themselves to blow up innocent people is where I start. A blatent disregard for human life by using civillians as human shields (yes, I am aware that Israel has been accused of this as well) is another factor.

[Marvin]

Actually, this last comment leads me to believe that Marvin is some sort of brilliant satirist who is either too ironic for his own good or else suffers on account of operating in a society where the standard tenor of debate is so close to comic farce that actual farce is indistinguishable (which is a big problem these days).

Only Benjamin Netanyahu knows for sure.

[Irishsara]

So wait, use of shoulder rockets isnt a terrorist activity? Lets broaden that alittle bit. So excessive use of force, Targeting civilians, Destroying property, Disrupting the way of life?

The State of Israel does all these things.

they demolished hundreds of Palestinian houses at Rafah, on the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt, so as to create a "sterile" zone hundreds of meters wide.

Amnesty International delegates in Gaza during the Three weeks of Operation Cast Lead that the IDF inflicted some 1,400 fatalities is and that, in addition to some 300 children, 115 women and 85 men aged over 50, some 200 men aged less than 50 were unarmed civilians who took no part in the hostilities.

What makes the Assassination of Lord Moyne by the Lehi underground any different from Hamas' actions?

[MissouriDragon]

If you're that concerned about it, sign up for Hamas and go fight 'em yourself.

Don't talk about it, be about it.

[Irishsara]

Its not a Hamas or even a Muslim thing. A 19 yr old American citizen was shot to death by the Israeli Armed Forces on that boat. It shouldnt be ignored.

[Tarrasque]

Its not a Hamas or even a Muslim thing. A 19 yr old American citizen was shot to death by the Israeli Armed Forces on that boat. It shouldnt be ignored.

Normally Sarah, I don't agree with you. But this is a fucking travesty and it infuriates me that nobody cares. If Iran had killed one of our citizens like that, there would be bombs dropping on Tehran within a day. But, since anybody who is Anti-Israeli is instantly painted with the very broad brush of "Antisemitism", you're not even allowed to talk about the subject in public without becoming a social pariah.

[drchannard]

Who exactly is ignoring it? I'm pretty sure it's all being looked into and no one is saying that Israel handled the situation correctly. Israel is defending itself in everything which you can expect them to do. Hell, the US is doing it with Dick Chaney.

I'm still not seeing why you are blaming everything on Israel and pretending like Hamas isn't doing anything wrong. The tready's that you claim that Israel broke were never fully implimented on either side. Israel didn't let in 700 trucks like it said it would and rockets and mortars never stopped firing into Israel. Yes, they greatly decreased but they never actually stopped. How can a cease fire agreement exsist if one side doesn't actually cease fire?

[Tarrasque]

CNN, FOX News, BBC and MSNBC. That's who's ignoring it. Imagine if North Korea had raided a boat and killed a 19 year old American. That would be the #1 news story for weeks.